This maybe a bit of a silly question. But I have been a bit confused by some of the postings I see here referencing BML. It has been my understanding that BML is different from Lilith. BML is a point in space and Lilith is an asteroid. Is this correct? Because I have seen people here referencing BML at a location in their chart which is where the Lilith glyph is located it's confusing. I don't know a whole lot about the asteroids and such yet. But I'd really hate to learn the wrong thing in the beginning!

Thank you!

This is a really good explanation of the three.

http://www.elsaelsa.com/astrology/2012/02/15/black-moon-lilith/

Thank you kr. That was helpful. Now I'm just confused though. So the astro.com glyph is BML? I came across instructions somewhere that showed how to calculate the Liliths and it comes up differently than the glyph in my chart.

I just want things to be simple and clearly labeled! <sigh> Neptune on the AC anyone?

crap..  i've had it wront this whole time... 

lol @ Rant I'm sorry. But hey, at least you aren't alone in this!

It is confusing.  This article describes more about the difference between the three Liliths:

http://darkstarastrology.com/triple-moon-goddess-lilith-astrology/

OH CRAP!!!  the actual asteroid lilith is perfectly conjunct my uranus.  i have no idea what that means..  but it's seriously only 7 minutes off........

@ mahchi - Thank you! That article backs up my confusion! I've been using "h13" in the "Additional Objects" field (is that what its called?) at the bottom of the page on astro.com before chart creation. And that object is not the same as Lilith. I've actually seen very few charts here on EE that use the "oscilating" measurement that is BML. Still seeking clarity. Maybe even I can help some others along too!

@lucky - BML is just on the left hand side there is the list of planets.  It says "Lilith" but in reality, it is BML.

To get the asteroid "Lilith", you need to enter 1181 in the box at the bottom.

if you want Dark Moon Lilith, you enter h58 in the box at the bottom.

Am I missing something?

ok..  so i pulled up a chart with black moon lilith, dark moon lilith, asteroid lilith AND oscilating lunar apogee black lilith......

more confused than i was 20 minutes ago

okay, so here is another thought - I think astro.com is automatically calculating the point between these two hypothetical points:

h13 Osculating Lunar Apogee ("True" Lilith / Black Moon)
h21 Interpolated Lunar Apogee (Lilith), also called 'Natural Apogee'

it is calling it BML and it shows up in the chart with a little glyph.

My reasoning is that in my chart:

h13 = 5.15

h21 = 10.39

and the glyph shows up at 7.37.

does that make sense?

h13 is the oscilating lunar apogee lilith, but then they also list h21 as the interpolated lunar apogee .. also known as lilith.  again...?

@ Rant LOL....Again, I'm sorry.

@ Mahchi - I copied this from the bottom of the page in the link you included above:

"Create your chart HERE

Choose “Extended Chart Selection”

In “Additional objects“, select “Lilith”. This is Black Moon Lilith (Mean)

In “additional asteroids or “hypothetical” planets” add 1181, h13, h58. This will show asteroid Lilith, Black Moon Lilith (True/Osculating) and Dark Moon Lilith."

======================

Its in that last line above where my confusion is. On astro.com is "h13" and the asteroid Lilith in the box on the side (the box with the other asteroids in it) the same thing? Am I just being confused or confusing?

This is a quote from Darkstar (who really know what they're talking about):

This is not a solid object, it is a point of alignment. The Black Moon is the apogee of the Moons orbit, the point that is farthest from the earth. Just as points like the North Node and the Vertex are hugely important, so is the lunar apogee.

Just as there is a Lunar mean and true Node, so there is a Mean and True (osculating) Lilith. As I have found True Lilith to have just as strong an influence as Mean Lilith. Together they form according to Lilith expert Kelly Hunter, a Black Moon Corridor. True Lilith has a wildly vacillating orbit and demonstrates the same quality as an anaretic Planet; potent, fermenting, on the verge of changing. Mean Lilith is more like a fermented refined and stable magic.

Mean Lilith is what astro.com uses in their left hand chart and is called "Lilith".

my chart:

BML: 23li41

Lilith (asteroid): 24sc51

Dark moon Lilith: 20le53

Oscilating Lilith: 15li29

so which is which?

maybe I'm not being clear.  The "lilith" on the left hand side is a MEAN Lilith - it is a calculation of the midpoint between h13 and h21 (as described above).

I think it is correct to use what astro.com is suggesting - which is the Mean Lilith.

Wow!

So Mean Lilith is Black Moon Lilith is True/Osculating Lilith? I'm just trying to be sure I know what I'm looking at in my chart.

TY @ mahchi for your help with this. <3

oh mahchi my head is spinning...

so then, the lilith that shows up as the gliph is the calculated midpoint?  because mine isn't between the oscilating or interpolated

I just figured it out while trying to help you!  I guess the thing is I am definitely not knowledgeable enough to know whether h13 or h21 is a better bet to use than the Mean Lilith but it seems to me that astro.com DOES know what they're doing.  They seem to use points and calculations that have some kind of astrological standing (or at least that's what it looks like from the outside lol).  Darkstar astrology also knows what they're talking about too.  Very experienced. 

it is kind of interesting for me to find this out too as I had no prior understanding either! But glad I know now!!

@rant - what was h13 and h21 vs. the glyph?

i think perhaps i should figure out the rest of my chart before counting the liliths in vain....

h13:  15li29

h21:  19li55

gliph  23li41

h13 is True/oscillating

h21 is natural/interpolated

Glyph on astro.com is a mean of h13 and h21.

at least that is what is happening in my chart!

I have the Lilith glyph at 6Sco
I have h21 at 7Sco
My Osc. Lilith is at 26Lib (h13)
My 1181 Lilith is at 22Sag

This doesn't work out as a midpoint. Is it supposed to?

My head is spinning too. And here I thought this would be an easy question and answer thread. Haha! Jokes on me!

ETA to add h21 location.

So, the mean of h13 and h21 is BML? I'll have to go see where h21 is. I didn't include it.

if the glyph is a mean, wouldn't it be between the other two?

@rant - I think h21 is 23.41 and the glyph is at 19.55.  Is that right?

the mean of 5.15 and 10.39 is 7.77 not 7.37 .... 

nope the glyph is at 23li41  conjunct pluto.  always has been. 

haha  there is rounding!  We were just showing the degrees and minutes, not the seconds (or whatever they're called!!).

seconds wouldn't change the 3 to a 7.. they would only affect the last number in rounding, like 10 degrees, 36 minutes 58 seconds would be 10.37....

I am mathematically challenged. Isn't a mean an average or half-way point? Because if so, 6-7Scorpio is not the midway of 26Lib and 22Sag.

yes a mean is the average...  all of this calculating and interpretation has my virgo all up in a tizzy!

... i kinda like it.....

Ok I clearly don't know what I'm talking about and now I've lead you both down a garden path...SO SORRY!  But it is a mean - i think the thing is "mean" relates to elliptical patterns which aren't linear.

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm

My poor Virgo Moon never had a strong chance to get into Maths. I was already struggling with it in 2nd grade! I'm sure that shows in my chart somewhere. But back to Lilith!

@ mahchi - ((hugs)) Oh no! I don't see it that way at all! You've been very helpful even if the answer hasn't became apparent to me yet.

Besides, many garden paths have beautiful scenery and this Taurus likes gardens!

Ok - willow tries to explain it a bit better here:

http://willowsweb.blogspot.com/2009/05/mean-versus-true-black-moon-lilith.html

i need someone to draw me pictures to understand this one...

i have now come to the conclusion that we should all use h13. That is true BML.

Get rid of glyph, forget about h21, who cares about the asteroid, just use h13!

haha!

And this is a very flowery thread !