From my book, Bad Boys, Bad Men: Confronting Antisocial Personality Disorder

Donald W, Black writes:

"Many regard rape as a crime of violence, despite its undeniable sexual component..."

This book was written in 1999. I remember when it came into vogue to say that rape was about violence, not sex.  Do people still believe this? What is the prevailing wisdom at this point?  If you are in school now, or recently graduated and studied anythng like this, what were you taught?

Thanks.

that's what I was taught.

When I was in school in the mid-90's the line was "rape is about control."  Neither sex nor violence.

I don't buy it.  It's a hybridization of all three, methinks, though (arguably and paradoxically) there are rapists who aren't really all that violent after the woman is subdued.  That's a whole other class of ick, though.  Those guys give me the willies.  *shivers*

I know nothing about, nor was taught a thing. But my instinct tells me it's violent.

Was taught it is not about sex,   but a control/violence thing.  Usually the rapist was oppressed/humiliated/berated by a strong *mom* like figure in his childhood.    Not sure what the current thinking is anymore,  haven't gotten that far yet.  

uhhhh

taught it was violence

I used to live in Baltimore when I knew several girls my age forced into rape after walking home.

One man even climbed into the woman's window, gagged her, and then said, "Don't worry, I'll wear a condom" before going through with it. 

Yes, it's about sex, but...the other person is forced into the act, it's still a physical/emotional affliction, yeah?

Arguably there are probably tons of rapes that might just take place after drinking between friends, without the typical criminal component.

I was taught rape is about power and control---violence and sex are the weapons used.

So everyone was taught this... do you buy it?

I do think date rape is about sex.  But non date rape,  not so sure,  I do think it is about violent power/control  but  why does it manifest itself sexually as opposed to  just a violent physical act or feces smearing  I don't know,  so I am skeptical.  

Yes, I do.

Already answered, but nope!

If it's just about violence, why not just beat or kill?  Why rape?
If it's just about sex, why the violence?  It's just as easy to get a one-night stand or hooker, and if you need the pain, too, there's plenty of people who will indulge willingly.
If it's just about power and control, then why not lord over your family and friends?  Much easier and not criminal.

It's an amalgam of each, I think.  Leaving out any of them creates an obvious hole.

I was taught recently in women's studies, and a human sexuality class that rape is any form of sexual contact where consent either can't be given, or isn't given. I also see it as a form of power and control over someone else.

And I haven't reviewed the recent stat's that claimed that most rape victims know their assailant. Haven't looked into current numbers, so it's just a theory at this point.

My husband says men are just like dogs... you have to control what you do with your sex drive, especially when you are young. He says it is about sex - a man sees something they one / someone they want to fuck and take it rather than go through all rigmarole... he says to the woman, it might be violent but to the man - sexual, otherwise he'd not cum.

"If it were about violence, he'd just walk up and smack her..."

I don't know where these ideas come from. I was surprised when I read the line in the book - he says "obvious".  To me it is also obvious and I was wondering if the new-squirrely-math way of seeing things was still in place and it seems it is.

Some of this stuff they tell you just isn't right.  If you back just to the 60's there was a guy who was charismatic got everyone thinking schizophrenia was caused by the mother and her "un-lived" life or some such bullshit. Just keep in mind, people came up with this stuff while eating acid, okay?

If you read about violent criminals... search the blog, I have written about this quite a bit... they across the board say that they saw the pussy, they wanted it and they took it - end of story.

I am sorry if this is offensive which it may be.  It is 12 years since that book was written and I guess someone wouldn't use such language "obvious" to point out the how misguided the current position on something is.

For the record, it was an epic undertaking (of one man) who had to overturn the freakish idea re: schizophrenia and to this day, it you talk to someone in their late 50's or 60's, many of them will still spout that guys theories as if the were gospel even though he took a huge fall later in his career, never mind he was just plain full of shit, though easy on the eyes, I'll admit.

I don't know about what they 'teach' you... but, from personal experience it was all about sex, and when it wasn't given freely, it turned to violence... but, definately the sex was the driver, it just so happened that the route required violence to get there.  Guess I should have been more accomodating....NOT!

My husband uses the Jodi Foster rape movie as an example. He says if a woman came in a bar and started doing that and he was there, he'd leave he immediately.  He's know what was going to happen - he would not want any part of it but says he's got it in him too. He's told many times a man has got to work to restrain himself - he has to work to restrain himself but figures this is what separates men from animals.

In regards to that movie, he says the woman comes in, she shows her ass, the men get turned on, they don't respect her, they throw her on the pool table - end of story.

I swear there is this whole generation who just DENIES Mars. Denies raw male energy. Denying it does not make it go away. Those men want to FUCK, They decide to override whatever and fuck.

@Elsa, I totally agree with the Soldier.  There is a sense that women don't have any more responsibility, except to 'say no'.  Granted, that is true... BUT!!!

I spent a few years doing teen counseling concerning 'date rape'... which was what I experienced, although it was long before the term was ever coined.  The main thing that I taught was 'cause and effect'... yes, you have every right to dress as you may feel you have a right to, but- you have to realize the response that you may provoke and be able to handle it. cause and effect  choice/responsibility  I have to tell you, I had a lot of rooms full of wide eyed girls.

"Those men want to FUCK, They decide to override whatever and fuck."

See, that's what makes me think it's not only sex.  If a man can restrain the impulse to rape then there's a missing trigger somewhere, something he doesn't have.  Yanno?

There are plenty of guys who get hard over some chick's antics and never throw her down and rape her, far more that don't than those who do.  There must be something about the men that do commit rape, then, some wiring misfire, some link, some something other than "I was horny."

They's broke.  *nodnodnod*  If I can restrain my impulses on a daily basis, some of which run to far darker things than rape, then anyone who can't... yeah, they're broken somewhere up here *points to head*.

*Normal people/healthy people* live in a universe regulated by time and space, we create this time and space.  But people who do not live in the time and space we(society) create, live in a paralell universe,  in paralell universes time and space do not exist. (Frisch 2010 Psychiatric mental health nursing) for them what separates their universes is a thin membrane with holes in and they are able to go from one universe to the other and back again. 

In my opinion it's a violent act to try and assert control. From what I've seen, people who would do that sort of thing are full of rage because they feel powerless within their lives and sex is the fucked up way they try to assert control.

SaDiablo - I think men know more about men than women do and since I have access to one who will speak candidly...

My husband:

"A normal motherfucker sees a kitty and calls it, gets it to come to him. But some men just grab the cat..."

"I wonder how those studies turned out. They told the woman not to fight back and they'd not get raped because it would take away the man's desire to rape her because it wouldn't be violent because they wouldn't be fighting.  I wonder if the women who just lie there still got fucked, I am guessing they did."

"I have been mad enough to want to punch a woman. I have wanted to punch a woman's lights right out but I don't want to fuck her. If I am going to be violent, I am going to beat your ass, not fuck you."

For the record, my husband has never hit a woman though he did tangle with this one lesbian who kept challenging him - bumping her chest into his (search "soldier and the lesbian).

Elsa your hubby is oh so right, especially when he used the word normal.  These guys who do this aren't normal,  they don't play/follow the same rules.  Do they know the rules,  you bet,  but just WTF overrides it and trips their trigger?  

"There is apparently a whole generation that denies raw male energy, I said.

"Keep denying it. Sure way to be unhappy and unsuccessful."

"How is that?"

"Denying reality.  How are you going to be happy and successful when you deny reality?"

I remember that story (solider v. lesbian).  :)

I don't actually disagree.  We're just riding the same thought-train and getting off at different stops (I think that's a clear metaphor?).

I need to get some work done, but this conversation is super interesting!  Gah!  Conflict of interest...  :)  I'll be back later after I mull this over and actually do what I'm paid for.

i'd think it depends on the rape.

you've also got killers who sometimes have sexual components to their murders. this stuff gets all mashed up for some people, violence as a sexual stimulus. i don't the the targets of attacks would always necessarily be women who the man is attracted to for some reason outside the act of violence, although sometimes.

i was taught about rape very young by my mother. that rape was about sex, men, and violence. in that order--watch men, watch your back for that matter because they'll turn on you on a dime. 

only later (20s?) did i hear otherwise (about power/control)--couldn't tell you where

anyway--it was all about the 'animal'

(mars/moon/pluto in a t-square)--my aries mars is conj. mum's sun, and our aries SNs are 1 degree apart. 
 

If it was just about sex, how does it explain apparently decent family men with wives, that climb through windows and rape women? These kinds are not just out for sex, there are lots of other components.

I also think a woman can and should be able to dress anyway she sees fit as long as it isn't breaking a law for indecency. This reminds me of lawyers in the past asking what colour underwear a rape victim was wearing. Like red, purple or black must mean you are a whore and deserve to be raped. I absolutely do not agree that it is all about sex.

Rape is violence and control and cruelty. Sex is just the feel good aspect for the fucking creeps that do these things.

If it is just about these pieces of shit getting their rocks off, this wouldn't also be a reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_rape

I heard that rape is about violence and control, too. I'm also leaning towards rape is about sex and am finding it hard to make a case that it is about violence and control. I mean, Mallards do it if they can't get any, sometimes even drowning the female in the process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallard#Reproduction

Hmm.

Mallards don't have opposable thumbs with which to rub one out. Humans do.

Blue balls is not a fatal condition requiring extreme measures.

I don't know. My father used to say the same as Rhino, which shocked me to the core as an impressionable teenager, but then he had Mars Pluto and my Mars barely works.

 I do think that we as a society have NO idea about Mars any more though. Too much 'sophistication', and demanding men act like women. And perhaps that feeds into the prevalence of these crimes. But really, I have no experience (thank God) or  knowledge enough to comment usefully.

"If it was just about sex, how does it explain apparently decent family men with wives, that climb through windows and rape women?"

I would say the man is following his dick through the window.  In other words, a sexual compulsion.

Re: blue balls, my husband specifically mentioned that when he was talking about the rape movie. He said he would leave because he does not like to be tortured, he does not want to have blue balls and he does not want to rape anyone so that's that. 

He flat out acknowledges it is in him, the urge exists to take what he wants but he opts to control himself, and be a civilized man which is what he thinks all men should do. Further he thinks if a man is unable to do this, he should be shot like the dog he is, however, he does fault a woman for waving her ass in front of a bunch of men... setting up a situation where she is most certainly at risk to be hurt and then crying surprise when it happens.  These girls who show up naked a frat party is an example.

I realize this PC but just because something is deemed to be politically correct does not mean it bears any resemblance to reality or how men/women think and act.

The bottom line - don't go show a a pack of men your ass as if you do they may just lose their control, especially if they are young and drunk. Basically, it is possible the dogs get out and while I know he thinks men are responsible to control themselves, women do have a responsibility here... I don't really see how it can be any other way.

It's like the women who protest by walking down city streets with their breasts exposed. That's fine but if you do this, men will gawk.

I was reading about some gal who organized one of these protests and then complained that men looked at her, whistled and what not. Okay, lady. Whatever.  In your brain-damaged mind, you think you should be able to walk down the street naked and have no men look at you or be aroused.  Riiiight, Ms Delusionville.

There is another component here, most men don't respect this kind of woman... even when they say they do. They say do so they can get laid!

I realize some of you think I am antiquated but in reality, this is the way it is 'round the world throughout all time. A man has a dick and testosterone... period.

Rapists are not merely men with heightened libidos.  These are men who seek to control and sex is the weapon they wield - not the ends, but the means.   It is not a complement.  

I wanted to comment earlier but have been confused by some of the discussion here.  Specifically, I'm not sure why it's important whether rape is a crime of violence or that of sex?   

As I have said elsewhere on the boards, I have lived part of my life in a third world country.  There, any woman walking alone on the street was considered to be provocative to men and so inviting to be sexually assaulted, as a minimum, and at times raped.  And to be sure, none of those women would be showing flesh or even their hair.  I would be interested to hear how Elsa's comment about women asking for it would apply to those women. 

Hmm I thought mars/1st was agression  - and pluto/8th was sex - sharing of bodies? When they get intertwined then it's rape because they need to include pluto in the straight up fucking/release of built up energy. They have to use their body to hold down another body which includes pluto. I don't see these as seperate with rape. Actually I think I hold different definitions. Mars is to act. Part of sex but not SEX. Getting aroused and riled up to act can lead to many things.. not always the sharing of bodies.

I have mars/pluto/venus/sun so really I don't see these things as seperate. Since I feel love and agression with sex, I don't care to put myself on display to anyone who I don't think will love me or return the lovemaking. 

"I would be interested to hear how Elsa's comment about women asking for it would apply to those women. "

I am interested as well, muhajir. 

I didn't make a comment about women asking for it.

Double post while trying to edit typos!

There are many kinds of rape and rapists. A friend of mine was raped by two men in the stiarwell of her flats - I think there was a racial element to that one. There was a rapist in London a few years ago who targeted only very old women - what was that about? Some rapists target only strangers and the violence is a large part of the thrill. Some only 'date-rape' that is, they get a girl back to their room or hers, or to a hotel, then things go too far (sometimes with rohypnol as an aid).

I agree with Elsa that some young women are very foolish in the way they put themselves into danger. I've luckily never been violently raped - I can't think of anything much worse. But I have two or three times been technically 'date-raped': once by a man I had been seriously involved with who refused to leave my flat... or to take no for an answer. And twice in the morning after waking up with someone and declining further sex.

On all those occasions I figured I'd put myself in that position and what happened was no big deal (I'd had sex with all three anyway). Men will be men and given the life I've led, I was lucky not to find myself in more trouble - although I'd learned to handle myself well over the years.

No men I've ever discussed this with agreed that those three occasions were even technical rape btw - they really do have a different definition of what rape is!

I disagree with the blue balls and the compulsion. No man raped a woman because she showed too much ass or tit.  He might use her clothing or her attitude to justify his behavior, but if she had been willing, a rapist would not be interested in having sex with her.

Men who rape are sexually excited by humiliating and hurting their victim. Rapists do not rape just one time, they are serial rapists. Rape is how they get excited.

 But to the victim, the rape is violence. Rapist are not interesting in consensual sex. This is why a married rapist who has consensual sex with his wife, will go out and rape an unwilling woman.

Rape is absolutely a violent crime,

Some people might be miscatagorizing other manipulative crimes related to sex as rape, and there can be a very thin line between the two.

Rape is violent for two reasons first the actual violence both physical and mental, second the fear of harm or intimidation factor.

"Men who rape are sexually excited by humiliating and hurting their victim."

I wasn't sure if I even wanted to say anything here but...you know, there are also men who rape their wives or girlfriends. I knew one.

I knew him rather well, in fact. He was my boyfriend.

You can never tell me that him putting his hands around my neck and squeezing while I coughed and sputtered and cried had to do with getting SEX. He could have gotten that from me consensually and certainly had before. That's not really what he was after.