Today I ran into someone lecturing someone for a perceived lack of foresight.

I disagree profoundly with the idea that of telling someone it was their responsibility for their actions and choices when the person did not choose - they did not know, and it was obvious. I think that is the time for figuring out where we can go from here, not heaping on personal views of reality on someone who truly didn't know. They sure have their feet on the ground now, but repeating it to them doesn't help and wastes everyone's time. It pisses me off to no end. Oh, of course, it makes the lecturer feel superior, that is all.

Do you throw another brick on top of the heap when you see someone hit by a ton of them, or do you help dig them out faster?

Hell no!! I think the person knows what's up without the lecture. I listen and try to help in any way I can.

No I wouldn't dream of lecturing someone when they are down.

No, I don't think a person needs a lecture, esp. when they are down! I'm sure they know how they got there  and there is no reason to leave them there in their mess and not help them dig out. 

I'd help in any way I could knowing they had been hit by the reality monster already.

What miss said....

I would rather bite my tongue then say I told you so.

Ugh. NO!  I'm too empathetic to put out a fire with gasoline or pour salt on a bleeding wound. In the spirit of honest disclosure though, I've usually done any lecturing I'm going to do previously. So, if it came to pass, it's not like there's new information to be gained belabouring a point, eh?

Once upon a time I had charge of a young boy of about 4. He was a dasher, darter constantly in pell-mell motion without a care or regard to his surroundings.

We were at a park with paths of uneven cobbled pavers and I had cautioned him several times to watch his step, mind for others and slow down a bit. After another close call I gave him the hairy eyeball and sternly admonished him, "You've been told and warned young man! If you keep it up and take a tumble you will have *only yourself to blame* [cue doom music]".

Of course, not a minute later he zig-zagged at mach 20 and went ass over teakettle across the rough pavement where he lay in a heap. Heart in my throat I went rushing to him to check and scoop him into a tight hug.

"Oh no! Sweetie! Are you alright?!"  and that tearstained, quiver lipped, snot covered little face peering up at me. "[sniffle] I  [choke] hab only [hiccup] mahself to [snuffle] blaaaaame [wail]".  Broke my heart into a thousand shards as I soothed and assured him that that didn't make it hurt any less and it was gonna be **o-kaay**.  

(PS: a bit of rubbing and boo-boo kissing along with a prescriptive sno-cone and he was right as rain--though he did gear it down a notch with the vroom-vroom for awhile)

I try very hard not to and I'm much better at holding my tongue than I was - but I have seven planets and other bits and bobs in Cardinal!

I still find it very hard when I've been advising a certain course of action which the afflicted declined to take... eg my two old chums with expensive computer crashes last year, caused by AOL-related problems, whom I'd been advising for YEARS to get out of that spawn of the devil... Pointing out: "If you'd taken my advice you wouldn't need to be moaning to me now" was several times almost irresistible...

I usually dig 'em out caz most likely my Virgo has already been on the soapbox.

Cute story, CPG.

<----- Person with guilty look.

Ummm.... yeah , sometimes. Especially when I've invested allot of time & energy into helping someone with a specific problem. I'm slowly getting better at  NOT  doing this.

I would really, really like to be able to say no, and I feel I am a compassionate person. However there has been an incident in the last month that could be seen in this light.

I don't view it as lecturing, but maybe my friend did. She is with an alcoholic (I have written about this before), and has been for almost 9 years. She called me and was crying for the umpteenth time about how horrible her partner was, how fucked up he was, how much havoc he was creating in her life. I told her the situation was never going to change. She described a situation they'd had the night before and I got really upset--told her that what he had done was abuse.

Yes, I could certainly be seen as lecturing, and yes, she is certainly down. I am not convinced I was wrong, or uncaring to tell her I thought she should rent a moving van and leave the apartment during the day while he was at work (she was complaining he wouldn't allow her to break up with him, and refused to leave her apartment).

She's not talking to me right now. This is really upsetting me. I just can't take it anymore. She's going off a cliff. The last time she saw me she told me she was getting drunk every day because she can't handle being awake anymore.

There are several people in my life that are making decisions right now, and I can feel them slipping away/going down. They aren't young people. I fear for them. I can't help them but I also can't just sit in silence listening to the crazy talk anymore. I don't want to let myself be a dumping ground.

Ultimately, though, I don't want to be a 'yes' woman--sitting in silence while someone who is my friend ruins her life. I am not going to go on and on and on about it but I feel I did the right thing in telling her I think she's in an abusive relationship.

Time will prove if I'm wrong or not. I acted from the heart. Regardless, she isn't speaking to me.

Ouch. Kash, I really get where you are coming from...and how difficult that "rock and a hard place" can be.

FWIW, I wouldn't characterize your actions with your friend as lecturing or rubbing it in. There comes a time when it is more hurtful than helpful to continue to provide a pressure release/sounding board for people who are continually throwing their energy behind "running in place".

What I had to learn to do (with the help of a kick-ass counselor bitd) was, at a certain point, set some clear boundaries about what I could/would not provide and stand by them regardless of the outcome. I even had a (stilted sounding) script:

"Just say the word and I can and will: Come pick you up; Help find/afford housing or food or tratment or... [xyz mitigation of the fear that's holding them back]...but I need you to understand that its become too painful for me to just listen and standby while you continue to hurt/destroy yourself. I love you and want to help, but I don't think this approach is helping anymore if it ever did. And I *know that it is causing me serious pain and grief. So, we can talk about anything else and you don't have to take me up on xyz now or ever...and if you are ever ready to accept my help I'm there for yah...but this topic of conversation has to be off the table".

And yeah...there are a handful of people I love like crazy with whom I'm out of touch because of it...But in 3 specific cases? I can report that--though they did not take my help--they have since gotten up and out of their ditch and are doing *so* many amazing things with their lives. So, it is bittersweet, but I'm ultimately glad of my decision though I miss them and am sorry to not be a part of their current good times. And I do think/know that I played a (painful) part in their recoveries.

((Kash)) I hope that your friend/s will be okay. And that you get to experience and be a part of better days ahead for them. From everything we've shared on the boards here, you are a good friend and a solid person to have in one's corner.

I've done it and I always feel terrible afterward.  my kids and my partner are my targets and I try so hard not to do it.  :(

I've lectured an ex when he was down. But that was because he was throwing a pity party because I called him out on being a bad boyfriend. I don't feel bad for it.

Woman I'm more sensitive with, but I've lectured many men when they're down, oops. People tend to come to me often to pour their hearts out about their problems. If they are controlling boyfriends and they come back to me later because their gf left them, I'm not gonna stand there and console him for being borderline abusive. I do what I can to help at the time by outlining their faults and hoping they can improve it. And if they don't, I think it's important to bring it back to the real issue. They'll live.

Mind you, I'm not a bitch under these circumstances and I'm sure my 'lecturing' goes much appreciated. If not right away, then later.

Being down is the lecture.

(((((KASHMIRI)))))

Sorry to hear about your troubles, I've been there with friends.  I like what CPG said on how to deal.

I try not to lecture people period, but when they're down you might as well just throw fuckin' dirt in their face if you're going to go that route.

To this day I feel bad about this instance:

My first love and I broke up due to his depression. It got quite severe around Xmas and our relationship fell completely apart; it was terrible. I had an older friend (Jay) who I had met at the gym who was something of an older brother to me. He consoled me and gave me a lot of insight because he too suffered from depression. I really appreciated Jay being there for me.

About a week or two after Jay and I had gone out for lunch, and hearing me rant and cry over the phone in tears over this whole thing, Jay started coming to ME as his friend to talk to about HIS depression arising. To this day, I feel very mixed about it. A flip completely switched. I cut him out. I was very mad that he came to me for depression when I was going through a horrible breakup with the love of my life and he knew it. Sometimes I think I should apologize but I don't totally mean it.

That was probably one of the meanest things I've ever done to a person when they're down. So soon after he had spent hours being there for me.

Yeah, I can't say say I've never done this. It is a frustrating affair at times to watch someone you love be down.

Kashmiri, I've been in similar positions with good friends - over men, over impossible relationships with their mothers, over alcoholism etc etc. Tough love is real love, and enabling is not, for me. And yes I've lost friends for telling it how I see it - and that's not kicking someone when they're down, it's trying to open their eyes so they can pull themselves up

I too very much like CPG's post; it chimes with how I handle these things. But I'm heavily Cap and the Saturn role sits pretty comfortably with me

Thanks, BP. And thank you, too, CP. The past few months I've had the nasty realization that I give too freely to people who don't actually give a shit what I'm giving. t. Saturn is now in my 11th House. Time to get real about who I'm friends with:(

I think lecturing a person when they are down is may at times be heartfelt. But I think mostly it is more for the satisfaction of the lecturer.

I used to do this when I was younger. Now, I don't think I do, but who knows what another person's perception might be!

Not unless they ask for it. I have a cousin and a friend, both with heavy Pisces placements, that do stupid things and then when it's time to pay the consequences they always try to blame someone else. Nothing that happens to them, is ever their fault. I never let it slide, and call them on the bs.

In the way that "being down" is a lecture from life, I only add an additional lecture if...

1. they're not getting the lesson (like denial or blame shifting)

2. getting the lesson would help them

And then I back up the lecture. I'm a virgo. 

Funny, InTheDark, I can't see you giving a lecture...

lol

I don't lecture, aka harp on the past but I do encourage/pep talk/try to help the person process it. I'm sure it can come off as preachy sometimes (moon in sag & ceres in aries can't help it!)

I agree that lecturing can be a sign of great love. I mean it's not just anyone who'll put themselves thru great unpleasantness to bang a much needed lesson into your skull.

Not really, but I've been the one who was lectured when I was down before.

The only time I came close to doing that was a situation similar to kashmiri's, where my best friend had been in a horrid relationship for 13 years, and I was weary of hearing the same thing 100 times with no progress or changes.

I was specifically talking about lecturing people who did not choose their predicament, not the sort who knew what they were doing and chose poorly. Certainly there are situations were tough love is required. This post was after someone who was clueless learned a very hard lesson that wasn't their fault - they didn't bring it about but it happened to them anyway, and in those situations as much as it pains me, I try to help dig rather than give them a short course in disaster prevention. Although that might help at a later date, I suppose... :)

I'm with you starkttn. If they were clueless, there's no point to kicking them when they're down. Jeez, that's cruel.

Well that's the thing, though - these people think others have no business being clueless, and I agree, to an extent. I mean, some people just haven't experienced enough in their life, and this was one of those growing pains.

I'm still considering if it's okay in certain respects, though, so that's why I posted. Some people think you have to be cruel to be kind over here, so I'm a little looped up recently.

The idea being, if there is emphasis on how horrible it feels to be in this situation, they will be disinclined to bop around so clueless. As you can see, it works if the person is capable of growing in this direction, and if the person doesn't, they get worse and worse. Lately it's a phenomenon of asian values mixed in with the capitalist dream...if you're not on your feet it's your fault and we're not helping unless you have your act together to boost us socially...

Oh day-um, starkttn...I could write a dissertation on Asian values and the capitalist dream...maybe I should go back and get that PhD!  Bwahahaha...

When I first read your post that's what I thought of - Asians and how I grew up in a bubble.  I'm clueless about lotsa stuff but as one kind friend recently pointed out, I've thugged my way through life and clawed myself to a point of independence and self-sufficiency, something other people haven't.  This doesn't mean I don't have a large grey area or a blind spot, but no need to crucify me for it.

Sad thing is, most people don't, except family, aka the ones that can hurt me the most.  Gotta find a way to not give them so much power, working on it.