So I'm just begining my SR and right now Pluto is transiting conjunct my natal moon.  My marriage unexpectedly took a turn for the worst, my hubby "doesn't know if he's in love with me anymore".  We both have a lot of love between us as human beings and I'm trying to be patient to see if we can come out of this together, but I'm starting to get impatient but I know there is a long ride ahead of me.  Is there any hope with two transits like these going on simultaneaously?  Do you think when Saturn goes into Libra I will be able to see things a little more clearly?  I am completely dumbfounded and lost.

ouch!  Can you put your chart up??  It is hard to judge something this large without a total picture.

((shell))

(((((((((shell))))))))))))

I think that there is definitely hope. You have been together for a very long time, you have children together...what's happening with Uranus in your chart right now?

I don't know how to get the chart on here but here's the link to my chart w/ transits.  I hope it works.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=82gfileYlWovV-u1243356910&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=1&nho2=2&btyp=24&mth=gw&sday=4&smon=6&syr=2009&hsy=2&zod=&orbp=&rs=0&ast=

A few things I see right off the bat: Uranus opposing your natal Venus in Virgo (sudden love shocks?), as well as the current planet pileup in Aquarius in your 4th House (your home, which you share with him) square aspect to your 7th House Chiron (would this mean in your relationship you are the wounded healer?). I know that your question was personal to you, but how is your husband? Does he seem emotionally healthy? You've written before you have a wonderful female friend network--who does he have outside of his marriage that he can talk to/relate to/spend time with/blow off steam?

 One other thing , that Pluto in Cap is square your natal Jupiter. Perhaps with the natal placement (Moon in Capricorn square Jupiter) you are used to working in a way that sees you expand, and now Pluto is raining on the parade...kind of like trying to use a yo-yo with a lead balloon. Pluto is killing the bounce, man! The good thing is that these personal planets are in the early degrees--allowing you an opportunity to deal with these issues now.

one last thing: transiting Mercury in your 7th conjunct Chiron. Whatever you do, KEEP TALKING. No matter how much it hurts, I promise your conversations with your husband will be therapeutic, no matter what happens. 
 

Kash--Thank you so much!!

You actually touched on a big issue right now.  He's NOT emotionally ok.  He just returned from his 3rd time in Iraq, granted he's not a soldier (anymore), but he's witnessed a lot.  About a month before his return home a soldier that he liked a lot, worked with up close and personal on a daily basis, got pretty close to, killed himself.  He's taking it hard because he feels like he could've looked a little deeper and noticed something was wrong with him.

All of our close friends and both of our parents noticed right off the bat that he's not himself.  All everyone keeps saying is "something's wrong with him."  No one can believe that he isn't in love with me anymore.  But his friend's suicide has made him reflect on his own happiness and I can't help but think that he really isn't happy with me anymore. 

We've been communicating very well, there's no anger or fighting or anything, just a lot of talking and understanding, compassion and so on. 

I'm trying to hang in there, it's just going through the motions of daily life that is hard.  Being in the house with him, doing our daily things...knowing he doesn't feel the same......ohhhh, my Leo pride, lol!!

He persists that I'm his best friend and the only person he can talk to, he's very thankful that I've been understanding and not mad at him, but I think he would still like to have someone to talk to aside from me.  Most of his guy friends have wives that I'm really close to, so I think that's out of the question for him.  He's incredibly close to his mom....who is concerned about him and is coming down to see him from California next week :)

Shell, is he in any kind of thereapy right now? He's obviously had to deal with issues outside the range of average experience, and some individual therapy - plus maybe some couples therapy - might be a very good idea. I could very easily imagine someone in that situation dealing with PTSD issues, survivors guilt, and all kinds of other very challenging situations.

Reading so far (I admit reading quickly, between trains), I think there is hope and I think him being back for the third time from iraq, combat or not, and what happened to his friend is HUGE , huge. There has to be some trusted people besides you - where he can unload or begin to --

To separate out all the issues--

Perhaps your marriage is taking the "fall" here but it is displaced, an innocent victim so to speak.

So I agree with goddess totally.
And yeah you are having a lot of heavy transits but I absolutely believe there is hope here- keep reaching out- don't isolate

this is not astro advice but here's something to just put in your hopper and see how it fits:

he's been around a lot of death, pain, and loss.  then he had a huge loss himself.  he may be icing his feelings for you subconsciously because of a deep fear of losing you.  pushing you away (again, unconsciously) because the fear of loss is so great that he has to control it in some way, even if that is by minimizing his feelings for you.

I'm assuming he's either in therapy or has considered it, or considered and rejected it.  I think therapy would help flush out the cause of this change.  you know, make it conscious. 

shell, I'm so so sorry!  This is so hard!

I really agree with goddess, moonpluto, and satori.  I have a good friend who is dating a man just back from Iraq who lost many friends.  He is undergoing EMDR therapy and feels like it is really, really helping - you can read about it:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing

I hope that or some other type of therapy is appealing to him.

I don't know you, I just have this intuition from your postings that your marriage is strong.  Those look like really heavy transits to your chart ((((hugs))) and certainly it sounds like your husband is dealing with an overwhelming amount.  My gut is that these will be individual challenges and somehow you can find a way to stand by each other until the storms pass.

Thank you guys very much for all of the advice.

I actually have an appt with a therapist on the 11th for a consultation of sorts to see if we need therapy.  My husband is a prideful man and wasn't thrilled at first (I made the appt about 2 wks ago) but he seems to be accepting of it now and actually seems anxious to get help.  But since the appt was weeks away from when I actually called for the appt, I wondered if we would even make it to the 11th. 

He's been crying a lot ever since he's been home, and in the 9 years we've been together I've only seen him cry maybe 3 times.  He keeps saying "what's wrong with me?".  He's afraid of letting everyone down, like our parents, the kids, me.  But I tell him he has to follow his heart, if he's not happy..then he's not happy; regardless of what everyone else will think.  We both keep giving eachother mixed signals, and we're both very confused right now.  One minute I get the balls to just say "Let's go our seperate ways" and the next I think I have to hang in there!  My family is sooooo important to me.  It's what I've lived for and one of the only things I think I'm really good at (taking care of a family, being a wife). 

Satori--you know, I've thought of that actually.  He says a lot of things like "You don't deserve this", "I owe you my life", things like that....I don't know what to make of it all.  I would otherwise dig my feet into the ground and not budge until I've helped him as much as I could (as a wife), but the Pluto/moon transit in particular makes me wonder if this is the begining of the end.  I hope not.  I not only want to be with him, I want to transform our lives together after all of this, make it better than it ever was, which I thought was already pretty good. 

I just don't know where to start.  I don't know if I should give him space or be ever-more present??

Shell, my heart goes out to you and your husband.  I just wanted to quickly amplify Jessica's remark about EMDR:  I have personal experience with it (used it with a really good therapist for over a year, although courses of treatment can be shorter than that) and I really think it works, especially for trauma. 

qasseia, I'm so happy to hear other evidence that it works!

shell, that just breaks my heart, the things your husband has said.  (hugs) to both of you.  I am really glad you are looking into therapy.  From personal experience, I would strongly recommend doing individual therapy, either instead of or in addition to couples therapy.   It is kind of what we are learning about astrology - you have to consider the individuals' charts before getting into any kind of relationship analysis. :)

You are so brave!  Hang in there!  I remember Elsa describing going down into the well and letting your eyes adjust.

"but the Pluto/moon transit in particular makes me wonder if this is the begining of the end. "

 I don't know there's any way to know that right now - nobody understands for sure exactly what is going on and you're both under tremendous pressure, both dealing with intense grief and loss. There's no way you can make a rational decision under those circumstances. You're in the middle of a storm right now.

I'm really glad to hear you've made an appointment to see a therapist and believe it's the best possible decision you could have made. Whether you end up staying together or not, you both need the support.

Good Luck, Shell. I feel for you.

I continue to agree with all who comment here - I keep thinking: don't do anything rash, neither you nor him. Kind of like just have to hold on somehow, hold your ground, and maybe the key is to hold on in the daily routine somehow (6th house)

A good therapist can work wonders, esp in times of crisis--
Moving forward with that feels right

I think the pluto transit for sure shows change but it doesn't mean finality. It can mean the end of a phase-- and that you will surely feel it.

who am I to speculate or give advice-- just wishing you peace and strength.

What Elsa said^^ , "Ouch"!

Ouch is right.

Whoa, I hope things go right for you shell!

i agree with so much that has been written, and with moonpluto...hang in there. hang in there, hang in there, hang in there. i'm so sad for you both:( but hang on! love is so fucking precious, I agree with what satori said...I'm guilty of that myself.

the dream you wrote about before: it makes me think of how close you two are... some people definitely have what is termed survivor guilt. it's so real...especially with war. 

i won't claim to have the same experiences as you...but my partner almost died in an accident some years ago, and the effects of trauma had an 'echo' effect for a long time. I had never seen him cry, and he cried every single day for about a year straight. It was so fucking hard. To watch the person you love get completely decimated and put back together again...like Humpty Dumpty:)

I know it's not the same, but pain is pain, and broken is broken. Your husband sounds like he has a kind of heartbreak...But you can survive this, you can. That Mercury/Chiron is screaming out at me...I know it sounds ridiculous but please don't leave him...Leo has pride but Leo is also a SUPER CHAMPION AT LOVE...you have an unbelievable chance to grow exponentially with your Saturn Return, don't give up.

((((((((((shellybelly+ her tribe)))))))))))))))) 

i'm having a uranus moment...thought of this some more and wondered if i'm being too forceful with my view. 

i, er, can't temper my thoughts..just trying to be encouraging. i hope that wasn't too pressurized...eek! you are the captain of your ship, shell. i wished i mentioned that in my earlier comment.

wow saturn in virgo much, or whattttt

Let me also add emphasis to the EMDR suggestion.  I was diagnosed with PTSD after being sexually assaulted, and EMDR sped my progress tremendously.  I cant recommend it highly enough. I really hope that it can help you and your family. ((shell))

(((((((((Shell)))))))))))))))))

lots of love to you both! I don't have much to offer but I agree with everyone else... there is always hope!!

Thank you guys soooooooo much!  You don't even know how encouraging you all have been.  Truth is, the day before yesterday I told him "this isn't working".  It was out of desperation, confusion, impateince......now I'm cringing, hoping I haven't pushed him too far away.  He's given me a little more space than usual, but I see him still trying.  We talked about it this morning and we've both been talking about letting the other go simply because neither of us want the other in pain and hurting, but neither of us want to stop trying it seems.

Agghhh....so confusing.

He thinks our frequent distance (physically) has taken a huge toll, which it has, and he's hoping spending more time together will help.  I have to admit though, the fear is taking over.  What if we do spend more time and he still doesn't feel the same?  And what about the next time he has to leave?  How insecure I will feel about him being away knowing that he doesn't feel the same right now.

I know he loves me and I see him trying.  My best friend sent me a quote:

"Words that do not match deeds are unimportant." -Che Guevara

Everything he does seems like he is trying with all of his might, it's the things he says and then the things he does that confuses me. 

goddess--thanks for trying to put my chart up!  I think therapy is a great idea, I can't wait to start.  I'm hoping the therapist will convince him to do therapy on his own because I do think he would benefit from it.  Thank your for all of your advice and support.

moonpluto--I have wondered too if his feelings are misplaced, and I really hope they are =)  Thank you.  I think I've already voiced a rash idea ("This isn't working") I'm praying it's not too late.  I'm trying to stand firm in the storm, there are moments though that I get blown away.

Toni--yeah, Ouch!  haha.  Thank you =)

satori--I was thinking more about this, and I think I have done this a lot myself.  Knowing he always comes and goes, I've somewhat learned to keep him at arms length in order to desensitize myself from feeling too much pain everytime he leaves (he's been with his occupation for the past 8 years).  Obviously the wrong thing to do, and now I'm kicking myself in the ass.

Jessica--thank you for the info on EMDR.  I will have to look into it around here and see if our insurance will pay for it.  The hard part will be getting him to consider it =).  haha.  It means the world to me that you can "feel" our strongness because I do think him and I share a very, very special bond regardless if we are married, ex's, friends, whatever.

qasseia--thank you for your compassion.

Kashmiri--Oh how I love you so! =)  I definitely am very sensitive to his moods, energy, thoughts, etc....I can't even count how many dreams I've had regarding him and I that came true, or came awfully close to it.  Our experiences may not be the same, but as you said pain is pain.  I have so much to be thankful for in life, but in my own little world this is devastating as I'm sure the accident was for you guys!  I'm sure in the least you both learned to appreciate eachother more, ya?  I'm hoping for that effect down the road.  No you are not being too forceful, your CAPS and everything are actually very encouraging! lol! 

Midara--thanks for reiterating what qasseia and Jessica said.  And I still remember your picture from one of the classes and it cracks me up because I remember you realizing how symbolic it is that he's kinda in the backdrop all hidden and quiet while shiny (leo, right?) you is all up close.  =)  It makes me smile.

Monica--Thank you for taking the time to say something so simple yet encouraging.  Thanks!

Elsa--Thank you for giving us a spot to spill our guts and encourage eachother.  I think you've helped all of our lives in many ways.

..and I think this Pluto transit is seriously making me want to punch a wall, run away, go skydiving, move to a deserted island, or something of that matter....

I feel so bogged down it's like I need to break free somehow, or I feel like that movie "Me, Myself, and Irene"....I'm seriously gonna snap and develop some alter ego, haha.

But still, my Pluto/Mars square needs a release.

Shell - maybe one of those things you just listed wouldn't be such a bad idea (half-way serious here - sounds like you need something radical - maybe something radically fun!)  And maybe he does too.  Like get on an intense roller coaster ride together, if possible (or whatever floats your boats!)  Just something to turn off the churning thoughts for a bit and get out of your heads.

 But anyway,  since you'd still have to get back into those same heads eventually, I haven't much to say except 2 things jumped out at me when reading thru all this: 

1.  I think you should be aware of not expecting your response to this crisis to be pitch perfect at all times. . Like you, he can (and very likely will) be watching your actions more than your words.  If you put too much pressure on yourself to always hit just the right note for him and say the right thing, your head is gonna explode.

2.  I feel like I'm watching a movie about real love while reading this.  By which I mean,  you LOVE this man, it's so all over this thread.  And it's not one-sided either, that's jumpin' off the page. too.  So, you're both ding-dang lucky, and will just have to give it your best shot (which should probably include some of the great suggestions from everybody posting above.)

 I very much hope to read many more chapters of this love story in the future.  I'm pulling for you.

Crackers I saw "roller coaster" and thought...ROLLER DERBY! How badass would that be! Performance (Leo) hard work (Capricorn) camaraderie (Venus in 11th House) and super sexy (Scorpio ASC)

Here's a link, Shell, you're in Texas, right?

http://www.txrd.com/

I hope this weekend is good to you. Thinking of you!

Oh jeeze, Shell.  Coming a little late to this thread - good luck with this.  You got some really great advice from everyone so I don't have much to add, but it looks like you are handling a tough situation the best you can.

(((Shell)))

What a fun idea, Kashmiri!

(((shell)))

thinking of you...i remember when things were spiraling down in relationships sometimes i would find some help or respite in trying to rekindle the romance.....one thing i read that i think really does help....if you simply lie down and hold one another....without talking....your chakras (both of yours) will align on their own and start to vibrate more harmoniously again....this comes from a book on tantra for lovers.....i don't know if you can bring yourself to do that at this point....i guess for myself i have usually known when i reached the point of no return...when i knew that nothing could bring the physical element back......but this is an 'exercise' without pressure to bring it all back at once, just to reconnect

Lindsey--we have still been very affectionate and intimate towards eachother, I wasn't sure if this was detrimental or helpful. I thought maybe it would further confuse things and leave him unable to make a clear decision about me, but after 9 years it's nearly impossible to stop the affection cold turkey, lol. It seems it's been helping a little, so thank you for that advice =)

Kashmiri--That's a great idea, I only live 40 min. away from Austin. One of my old friends from high school used to actually be on one of those teams! We never really kept in touch though. I definitely need something, but I need something I can do like today!! Really, I feel like I'm gona break if I don't take action soon.

Crackers--That first bit of advice, whoa. I definitely feel like I'm tip toeing on eggshells, self-conscious if my reactions are correct. My reactions are organic, but it's after the fact that I start worrying if I "did the right thing." I will keep in mind that the best thing I can do for myself is to react without apology (to myself, hot him), because you are right...my head does feel like it's gonna explode! Thank you.

3 times over?  You spoke of distance.  You guys need SKIN TIME!  Touch him, touch him, touch him.  In passing, rub his shoulder, pat his butt, hold his hand, squeeze his muscles, etc.  Doesn't have to be sexual, just reconnect with him physically if you can.  He needs rooting at home!  Like a flower that's been wind-whipped in the back of a truck, the guy sounds as if he needs some sheltering and extra TLC, and sweet crooning plant-talk.

Good luck Shell, I wish you both the best!!  Thank him for his service for me. 

I asked my soldier about this and he was sympathetic to your husband of course. He said war is traumatic and it takes awhile.

Reading this, it seems you love each other very much and I hope you can hang in, Shell.  Saturn is about time and thinkng long term.

If he is like this for a year but comes back around and you and your kids get to have your family back / in tact, surely it's worth it.

A year is nothing in the scheme of 30 (a Saturn cycle) and I would be very concerned your separating that you do not look back in 30 years and think what a mistake! You are never going to have the depth of connection you have with this man, with another and he is in the same shape.

MY advice is you redouble your committment. Pay now (for a year) or pay later in decades of regret. It is so clear to the outsider you are in love (and so is he). TIME heals all wounds. Time is on your side.

Just tell him you love him and to take all the time he needs!  Tell him you are not bailing and tell him nothing else (no orders) and this will bring him around quickest, I'd say.

Thanks Elsa.  That really put things into perspective because I have been thinking this for the past couple of days.....like would I really be happy in the future knowing I gave up on the chance of living a lifetime with the man who has done so much for us and has loved us so much?  I do fear never finding someone as loving as him, and of course I think of the reprocussions of divorce on our children.  Since this is my Saturn Return, I was thinking more along the lines of 'this is what's supposed to be happening/begining of the end sort of thing' instead of Saturn being on my side.  I need to work on my patience because it is worth it to me.  I'd loooooove for us to get through this and be stronger in the end. 

Just keep him talking to you.

"I'm not sure if I love you."

"Oh," you say, not reacting.

 Just give him space and I bet he'll be back and eternally grateful.  Shell, single parenting is not what it is cracked up to be. The man loves you, this is clear.  Just focus on the fact he is affectionate and there... pay less mind to what he says because people say all kinds of things when they are mad and hurting.

"I hate you!  Fuck you!" 

This is not uncommon.  He is working it out but as you notice he is with you and your kids so I say focus on that. People have to blow off steam and sometimes say shitty things. Allowing them this latitude / not punishing them for it is very powerful and very powerfully loving.

I have heard nothing of a reason you should be considering leaving this man. How in the fuck are you going to leave the father of your kids who loves them and loves you and who you love? You're not, so stop thinking about it. Just give him space, space and space and watch his actions not his words. Think "subtle". Use yin technigues to save your family because I know this is important to you. If it gets too much, retreat but REMAIN committed, you will feel better if you do.

Make him understand if he wants out, he will have to make all the effort because you will not be co-operating / abadnoning him or your family but do it more in deeds than in words.  Saturn in Virgo!!! Quit talking, walk the walk!

Great advice Elsa!  It made me feel like, if I were the husband in this situation, I would be beyond blessed.  Meaning, Shell, good luck and hang in there because that perspective is very healing.  You have your feet planted firmly in the ground, you're not going anywhere, who could ask for more than that?  All the best to you as you go through this!!

Here is your line:

If he gets another woman and takes her to ball... if he files for a divorce, then you're toast. 

Anything less than that, this is still your man, I don't care what kind of crap comes out of his mouth.  Being kind, quiet and grown up will bring him back fastest. 

Look, Shell, we can tell from reading this you are an extraordinary wife / woman / mother and your husband knows this. He has seen some shit - he knows what shit is, he knows he's got a exceptionally good wife and family so just let him unscramble his head.

Right On!

"I hate you!  Fuck you!"

You know what, things are really coming into perspective because no matter how hurt/angry/lost he is....I don't think he would ever even say that.  Even though he says he's unhappy/not in love right now, he continuously says how much he loves me, how lucky he is, etc.  I guess the reasons why I even come close to considering leaving is because 1) I don't want him to hurt or feel guilty 2) This is the first time dealing with this and I'm lost/confused myself.  Now I feel pretty selfish and hasty for thinking about it .

Thanks for all of the insight <3

shell with Saturn in Virgo and pluto on your moon, the less you say and do, the better things will go. Super yin is your strongest position plus watch your words and you will be on top this sooner than you think.

Tell him you are going to think hard before you say anything... this sets an example. Do not tell him what to do, you see the difference.

I am pretty sure you can fix this whole thing by being smart.  Again: say and do as little as possible and I bet he gets his on train on track. Your power (pluto) is in the feminine.