This afternoon the boyfriend and I got into a rip-roaring fight. Doesn't matter about what. He went off to work and called later to smooth things over, which didn't work very well. In my trying to find an agreeable medium, I managed to piss him off more. 

At some point, I asked him: "....Oh, you mean like how every time we argue you tell me to go fuck my ex-husband?" 

Now, this is something he's said. I've heard him say it more than once. Both that and "Why don't you call (ex's name)". In fact, before I left for Tennessee last weekend we argued, too, and he told me in a spitting sarcastic tone to give the male friend I was picking up "road head" (which is a BJ while driving). 

So I say this to him and the reaction is as though he's been slapped. He tells me I'm lying. 

I ask him how on earth he believes I've pulled it out of my ass and he focuses on the only thing he can focus on - the term "every time".

HIM: "I don't say that EVERY time. How can you say that? You're lying and now I'm pissed off. You are so lying - if I did say that every time we argued, I'd tell you to leave me because who the fuck would ever be dumb enough to stay with someone who would keep saying that to them?"

Why, I would, dear (although Elsa and I have talked at length about what I need to do to get the hell OUT, I assure you). 

But apparently I'm making it up. I'm pulling it out of my rear end.

And the more he fights this, the more I start to slowly feel like I'm going nuts. I KNOW he's said. I know I've heard it out of him and I can't imagine it's something I just came up with off the top of my head. He's just trying to convince me that I'm the bad guy, here, and I'm struggling like hell to keep my head above water and not feel like the sane person in the insane asylum being told they're so nuts they don't realize they're nuts.

Finally I get sick of the going round and around. 

ME: "Listen - it's called being facetious. You don't say it EVERY time we argue; but you have said it often. You've said it more than once -hell, more than twice- and it's uncalled for."

HIM: "Oh, no no no. You cannot back pedal your way out of this. You said EVERY time and it's obvious you MEANT every time, so don't stack a lie on top of a lie. I am so pissed off right now, and you're a liar." 

At this point, my jaw is on the floor because I don't know how else to react.

He's also done this with other stuff. He'll say something very obviously meant to inflame, and then go "That's not what I meant - that's how you took it", too.

You see what's going on here? He's not outwardly denying he -ever- said it, because he can't. We both know he said it, even if he won't admit to it. It's in the back of his head, there. 

Instead, he's focusing on what I'VE done wrong in his perception and using it to beat me upside the head. Because as long as I'M wrong, he's got something to continue to use against me. As long as he makes me question MY sanity and what went on, he can continue being on top of the situation. 

It's gas lighting, folks and this is another example of how people use it to manipulate and control.

I think a lot of people do this, don't they. I mean, a lot of fights in relationships go like this. Is the black-and-white arguing some kind of subconscious ego move? Yeah. Yeah, I really think it is! 

Because if you're NOT speaking from the ego, then you're not fighting. You're having a polite conversation, the kind that Libras are so danged good at. 

God, don't you hate that it has to happen in a CAR so frequently? No Escape! Uggggh.

I feel you, sister.

I also have been in a relationship where conversations like this NEVER happen. NO CRAZYMAKING. AND NO hot sex after, either!

I hope things blow over. Listen, just know that people here understand where you're coming from!

Are there any Russian women here? Russian women know how to handle men. Don't they?

luci...i'm sorry:( what are you going to do??

No, I don't think that's normal. Throwing out things that hurt is normal - making someone feel like it never happened or they're making a big deal out of nothing and they're crazy....THAT'S not normal.

Kash - Elsa and I talked about making plans and following through with them. Preparing and smoke and mirrors. I need to be better on the smoke and mirrors thing and I'm socking my money away like a fiend.

uuuuuggh

you go, lady... your community here is behind you.

i agree with you %100 that pretending things have not happened is NOT GOOD. 

Wow, that sucks!!  I have been in similar situations and it seems whenever the man I was with got caught in a lie or caught doing something he shouldn't have been it gets turned aroung and I am the one who is crazy!! WTF??? This used to happen to me often in the many short term relationships I was in, but I wasn't has invested in them as you are, so it was easier for me to walk away.

I never thought about it as gaslighting but it is.  I am always later described as the "psycho" ex girlfriend,lol. whatever.  Ya I am soo psycho that I have two kids now a business and a good man,lol.

Part 1: Normal or Not Normal?

I actually never said that this was "normal" but I DID say that a lot of couples end up fighting this way. So you're not ALONE. My parents do this. It's dirty fighting and totally unreasonable.

Part 2: Your Exit

Disclaimer: read this with the understanding that it's just an "idea". I like sharing "ideas" but I don't really expect people to do what I say. It's your life, you know best and you will ultimately make your own choices.

In reply to:

Instead, he's focusing on what I'VE done wrong in his perception and using it to beat me upside the head. Because as long as I'M wrong, he's got something to continue to use against me. As long as he makes me question MY sanity and what went on, he can continue being on top of the situation. </>

When you get to the point that you're ready to chew off your own foot and toss it at him as a consolation prize, just to get away from him (doesn't Elsa call this "amputating?"), do this:

Break up with him, but instead of telling him "You do this and you do that and that's why we can't be together," make him eat his own words... these years of put-downs that he's been dishing.

He thinks you're a liar, you're unreasonable, you're this, you're that, it's your fault?

Okay, fine. It is "your fault" (but not really).

Just tell him it's really too bad, but these "many faults" that he has been so kind to point out make you unable to have a relationship. Tell him it is really unfortunate that you just can't seem to live up to his expectation. Obviously there must be a better, kinder, saner woman that would be ideal for him. 

In reply to:

"As long as he makes me question MY sanity and what went on, he can continue being on top of the situation."

Only for as long as he is in the situation WITH YOU. You, however, have free will and can remove yourself at any time. In which case, the tables turn and YOU have control, and YOU will make him EAT these smug words of his.

Keep socking away that cash. You can be free!

((luci)) what a dick! 

Sounds like he doesn't want to be in a relationship but rather just make you wrong. At some point even in a fight like that the unreasonable person has to notice they are being unreasonable and laugh or acknowledge it or they don't grow. They can still be pissed and leave it at that but the denial part is deadly.

And truth and lies? that's so 2008 :P Now it's about integrity and boundaries. Didn't he get the memo? You can no longer work/partner with someone who is going to treat you disrespectfully. Who has time for that?

good luck! ((luci))