In discussing the Einstein documentary we watched the other day, I mentioned that my grandfather, Henry would have been following this story as it unfolded.  My husband remarked, back in that say (the 1920's) people used to get together to discuss their ideas. Einstein did it and my grandfather did it as well.

My grandfather continued to do this, throughout his life. He hosted people of different races and religions - out in the middle of the desert - for the express purpose of comparing notes. This is a Jupiter-ruled thing. It mind-expanding and enhances you education. This was common back then but it no longer is  Having grown up with this, I crave this kind of conversation. 

I get a fix off this blog  at times. I also talk about ideas with the older-than-me ladies in my Woman's Club who also see conversations like these as normal and desirable.  You're allowed ti express your personal beliefs and/or your original thoughts and get feedback on them.  This is exciting for me. 

My husband likes to discuss things, as does his son but other than that, it's big blow off for the most part.  You've got to say the things you're supposed to say or suffer threats of all kinds.

My point here is that people from this era, the era where people really thought and expressed themselves freely, are dead and the people like me and the older ladies in my club, are dying.

Note that my grandfather was old when my other was born. This makes him the same age as the parents on the ladies from the club, which is why we get along so well. 

When people get together these days, it is to verify they're in agreement and against people who are not. 

This means if you want to get along with a lot of people, or if you have a business where your livelihood depends on being non-offending, you've got to make sure you never express yourself freely.  It's so different now, then it was then and the loss here is of epic proportion.

I am probably going to be able to find people to converse with (openly) for the rest of my life, but if I were 20 years younger and wanted this openness in my life, I'd probably be SOL.

My son has to conform to have friends at school, even if "conforming" means dressing up like a non-conformist. ::shakes head::

It's a sad day.

:(

I feel this loss.

This is why the old ladies like me so much. I am an influx of new energy to their group, but I do know how to converse.  We probe each others minds. We ask each other questions and are truly interested in other people's opinions, not so we can out them an as a friend or as an enemy but so we can consider what they say and become more knowledgeable ourselves.

But these ladies were taught to think, rather than follow blindly and this makes all the difference.  You can't just have an opinion someone else provided. You have to be able to support your theory, or admit you don't have one, lol. :)

I agree with everything you said Elsa.

I can only express parts of me depending on where I am. The people who I've known almost my entire life are more forgiving of a different opinion.

my childhood left a lot to be desired, but you did have to listen and prove your point, and if you made a strong argument it was respected.

My father was actually interested in what I had to say, once I got to be a teen, and there was a genuine exchange. I also attended a boarding school with kids from all over the world, and many different backgrounds, city, country, rich, poor. We were incouraged to do our own investgating and draw our own conclusions. INVALUABLE.

oh, and my father throughout his lfe mixed with everyone from bums to royalty, really.It seemed the main purpose of this was talking, expanding each others words. I have no way of knowing but it is my strong suspician that he was a sag. rising. I know he was a leo with a cap. moon.

This is basically my absolute favourite thing about my marriage.  We bounce ideas off each other constantly, wild theories, flights of fantasy, dark (graverobber/nurses/undertaker style) humour.  Grand air trine in the composite, and ideas FLOW.

Other than that it's true, real conversations as exchange of ideas are rare.  Supposedly academia is a place for this but personally I found it like shouting into a vacuum.  Maybe I just didn't stick it out long enough.

I was raised by a pack of wild corndogs.  Autocratic Catholic nuns and dogma that was fear based.  As my peers were Pluto in Leo types, we always questioned authority.  Sometimes it wasn't smart in manner, but none the less, the generational times made this easy. 

I enjoy learning from others, and am attracted to different tribes. 

I agree that times have changed although the root cause may be the fluff and ease of the past few years.  The wake up call is here again, and I see my children separating the wheat from the chaff.  My 16 year old soon 17 finds high school loathesome for this reason.  He sees the little lemmings as ridiculous and finds their behavior deplorable.  I feel bad for him because he is lonely, but doesn't want to be a member.

His thought process is solid, but the end result is tough.  I encourage him by agreement. 

This is one of my favorite things to do - discuss ideas with friends. I bond best by sharing what's in and on my mind.

I truly get what you're saying Elsa about people sharing ideas, not so much to find out whether they share the same values, but to expand their thinking.

My theory is that we're being pitted against each other in order to keep us distracted.

Mainstream media isn't reporting stories that I consider newsworthy. I don't care to see fluffy stories on the news, just the factual, Plutonic news as it happened.

The news media used to consist of 50 different media outlets and it is now down to approximately six.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/who-owns-the-media-the-6-monolithic-corporations-that-control-almost-everything-we-watch-hear-and-read

I didn't really grow up experiencing this either.  But it sounds like a wonderful idea :)  And it sounds like a ladies club would be a perfect place to have such conversations like this.  Unfortunately there aren't too many venues for people of differing socioeconomic statuses, religions and ethnicities to get together anymore. 

Wait, hold on.

Young people do have conversations with people of all backgrounds. We just don't do it face to face, normally. I can play a video game with someone from South Korea, debate with someone from the Netherlands on debate.org, and seek spiritual guidance from a guru in the Punjab if I choose to.

I think the reason why this side of us is overlooked is because we're not very vocal about it. This is contrasted against my mother's generation of baby boomers who are a lot more in your face about expanding their minds. We're a lot more likely to form flash mobs and sign online petitions than more traditional demonstrations of groupthink, as it were.

I'm not disagreeing with everything that you said, Elsa, I just think Generation Y is a lot deeper than most people think.

@Dadevi.  I love reading your angle on this post, appreciating the way in which you use the cyber world to people/interaction quota.  Being quiet can be judged as passive, but the collective force of water dribbing is undeniable.  Many cannot wait; others don't hear the water running.

On the other hand, not having facetoface real people interactions becomes a difficult if the vacuum happens over time.  I'm speaking from my experience of loosing a life that allowed and encouraged lots of facetoface to a life where no contact was the only way to survive.  Re-emerging at this stage the value of reclusiveness and open and trusting community is compounded.  I believe that's what Pluto and Uranus will offer me as the two planets square-off this summer; Jupiter's expansiveness will add to the quantum possibilities. 

I think that until one had time with knowing how much you think and what you think about in relation to the Nature of Life the quality of sharing is shallow ... and that is not a bad thing, it is simply that much.  If the shallow water 'swimmer' is allowed to swim there, and describe the view she sees there is all that ELSE to learn from. 

There is plenty of room for discussion like the ones you propose, Elsa.  I birth blog after blog without knowing whether I connect dots for any one but myself and two people at a time.  Lonely work.  But then, you propose this and the dots connect. 

This forum is a place for these open discussions, is it not?

@NTM I think there are ramifications to that here - people acting ugly toward Elsa behind the scenes.

I'm sure what she mentions about it is only a fraction :(

dadevi, that sounds good. And I don't mean to single out a generation. There is just a lot of pressure to not say certain things these days and the pressure crosses generations. 

If you're in a group that tolerates differences, that's great.  But the other day some boxer said he thought marriage was between a man and a woman. This was his belief, and it got him banned from a large retail property in Los Angeles (the Grove), where he was headed to give an interview.  That's pretty severely chastising and it's a great hindrance to open discussion.

Jilly right, I really don't understand that. I meant that a very wide range of people can express themselves here and Elsa has opened the doors to the boards in a way that allows them to do that.

@Elsa "some boxer said he thought marriage was between a man and a woman. This was his belief, and it got him banned from a large retail property in Los Angeles"

You had my interest at "boxer," so I looked it up and it was not just any fighter, but Manny Pacquiao, the most famous and best pound-for-pound boxer in the world!

His words have a lot of influence. I do not agree with his views, but I support his right to free speech.

OTOH, I'm torn because I think the venue should have the the right whom to host. Like, if I owned the venue, and the KKK wanted to do an interview there, I'd say no way. Hmmm.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/manny-pacquiao-banned-grove-gay-marriage-remarks.html

Well, hire some guards to ask people their views on whatever your sticking point is, if you like. Put a sign on your door saying "DO NOT ENTER IF..."  Hand out questionaires to anyone who comes to your home or business, have them fill them out and have them notorized or something. Meantime, I'm going to smile and greet everyone I meet.

When people get together these days, it is to verify they're in agreement and against people who are not

This is the crux of it!

I used to spend most of my time out socialising, which involved having pretty deep and confrontational discussions with all sorts of people: London, the island, my old university city - all places I mix with highly intelligent self-confident and well educated people. It's become more and more difficult to speak one's mind. Younger people seem to feel real hatred for those who think differently from themselves; I find it depressing

The boards do allow frank discussion to some extent, but I for one censor myself quite a lot here. I expect most of us do, for fear of firestorms

I love talking with people in their late twenties/thirties, and people in their seventies/eighties. 

It's in-between I get the most censure, and it drives me nuts.  To the point I seldom say what I really think, because it's almost never in concurrance with anyone else, and they can't be the least bit gracious about it.

I don't know why it's such a threat not to believe as others believe, but trust me, to them it is...

I'd say these boards are as good as it gets, as far as being able to access and question a diverse group of people. 

The tendency to be outraged and angry when someone disagrees with you is what is new from my perspective. It's just stunning.  It's like expecting everyone who comes in the bar to order a rum and coke, less we take 'em out back and beat the shit out of them.

How people have come to think this is good or normal is beyond me.

I don't know whether this is generational. I know a lot of people my age who are very intolerant of differing opinions. I think that it is extremely dangerous to only listen to one point of view.

I like to talk to a variety of people. I have only blocked one person, who after repeated requests not to be abusive, continue to make personal attacks in lieu of discussion. However, I do see a trend in which people stop using their deductive thinking skills.  Instead, they like to cling their idealogy whatever it is.

For example, there are people who will only vote democrat or will only vote republican. Democrats will tell  you that they are voting democrat because they believe in civil rights and personal freedoms. Republicans will tell you that they are voting republican because they believe in small government. A hard look at the facts will give ample proof that neither party is living up to its branding.