Liz's quote caught my eye on the Kevin Smith thread: "And although I think there is toughening needed to help some people become healthier"

I think that this is just back pedaling fat acceptance.  People can take more of their criticism on fat people, and Republicans can funnel their rage at obese people and turn debate away from the public option.   And taxing soda is convenient.  There are so many more fat causing things, why not tax chips?  Is Lay more powerful?  Or actually crack down on the FDA which the federal government is really avoiding doing due to the powerful lobbies.  Like, for instance, the corn lobbies that are adding corn syrup to every drink.  Some juice is just as unhealthy.  And it is taking one more affordable thing from poor people, who eat crappy food because it is part of their culture and can't afford anything else.  Why not make organic food cheaper?  

goddess also makes a good point that a lot of obese people are just obese not for lack of trying, but because their constitution is that way, like a story I read about an obese man who eats nothing but healthy food and fruit. 

I think there is so much to tackle, the attitude of a lot of poor American people is not going to change overnight.  Being in good shape is extremely difficult for many people and the government pushing them is not going to do much for people. Also, fitness is a business.  Who is going to make it more accessible for people?  And fun?  There are certain yoga postures and other exercises that obese people can't do, due to various things like damaged knees and arthritis.  There are a lot of things to consider.  Given the government's shit record about doing things, I don't know how they expect to tackle obesity.

I was in Thailand once in a park and they were doing this fun aerobics thing.  I think that a grassroots movement taking yoga and mild exercise to poor neighborhoods, or fun games like sack racing and such things for kids is a much better idea. Also I think many people have arthritis, it is hard enough for middle class people to exercise and lose weight with arthritis.

At the same time, obesity is an issue in America, how would you want the government to handle it?  

"At the same time, obesity is an issue in America, how would you want the government to handle it?"

I don't want the government to handle it. It is not the government's job to oversee my body!

Here's a rarity, folks...I can't say I have an opinion really.  I can't gain weight to save my life, and have been hovering around 130 pounds for 20 years.  My body will not allow me to put on weight, no matter how much I try to eat or work-out...   

I can't think of anything that makes it OK for the government to "handle" this.  It's my body, and I am a grown adult capable of making my own choices and accepting the consequences therein.

http://www.usatoday.com/LIFE/usaedition/2010-01-20-michelle-obama-obesity_NU.htm

What I don't get is why do they want to, really?  What's the urgency?  What's the real reason they want to do it?

Don't you think they should fight the FDA?  While it's everybody's body, everybody's choice, don't you think a lot of poor communities don't have the chance to get free fitness programs and should?

Do you think the government is going to go through with a bunch of this stuff?  What do you think they will get passed?

"don't you think a lot of poor communities don't have the chance to get free fitness programs and should?"

The chance to exercise is there for one and all. Just get up and walk. Do some sit ups.  People in prison stay in shape for Godsakes, if this is their will.

I agree with Elsa on "government handling" in the strictest sense.  I feel that because Michelle Obama is not part of the goverment, but has visibility, influence, and probably funding for such initatives, it's a good thing to focus on, especially her influence with moms who make food decisions for their families, and with people of color who suffer from a disproportionate percentage of the "obesity problem".  

At the end of the day, it helps us all if people are educated to make better food choices and reduce burden on the health care system.  But I don't want the government to spend time and money passing laws or restrictions on soda or fast food companies.  Hopefully, the American consciousness will shift on the food issue as we start recognizing more of the problem... but it isn't going to change drastically in the current economic client, when fast food is still the cheapest.

It might be something to do with  the healthcare reform issue. In the UK the government is forever bringing out new initiatives to tackle obesity because it costs the National Health Service millions each year dealing with the results of obesity. So if the US government is going to subsidise healthcare this could cost them...well, can you imagine?

We should focus on WHY we're eating so much first. It goes much deeper than loving food.

"We should focus on WHY we're eating so much first. It goes much deeper than loving food.":

Who the fuck is "we"?  How about you focus on what you want and I focus on what I want. Who the hell are you to tell me what my priority is?  It's fuckin' outrageous as is the idea I should take advice from someone who has had their eyes and face pinned up so many times they're wearing a mask that SCREAMS, "I am mentally ill". I'll tell you something scary.  The idea someone stupider than you is going to run your life. Not that is a nightmare.

I would like to see the government stay OUT of my business completely and let people solve their own personal problems.

As an aside, I absolutely HATE the lectures from the White House on how kids need to be raised, what we should be eating, or how we should be acting in general. (This is true regardless of the administration.) I don't need a "model" to learn me how to act, thank you very much.

"someone who has had their eyes and face pinned up so many times they're wearing a mask"

You are talking about face lifts right?  What do you mean by mentally ill?  That they have issues with being insecure?  

I wonder if America does have cultural attitudes about food beyond what people do individually.  People talk about its consumerist culture, etc.  We have larger portion sizes than Europeans do.  Figures do show that we consume an enormous amount.  Something has to be circumscribed culturally.  Fast food is being pitched to us on a daily basis and a lot of people take the bait.  At the same time, there are celebrities that get thinner by the day.

Well-said, Elsa.  Fucking right-on!!

Personal responsibility is a beautiful thing.

I'll tell you something scary.  The idea someone stupider than you is going to run your life.

and

Personal responsibility is a beautiful thing.

Huzzah! 

Dina, i'm italian and i lived in the usa : both our country have different eating culture with different consequences. Italian work out way less but they are still way thinner than americans

I agree with Elsa.

My mum walks every day for 2 miles every day--the sidewalk is right outside her door and her legs are free.

The US isn't going to handle shit as far as I'm concerned. Get off my body. Jesus. I've been big since birth and I have a natural claim to any size I want to be. People need to take their morality plays to a theater far, far away from me. I'm done with shame. 

If you've got to conduct a crusade, go storm the agribusiness castle, loading up all your food with HFCS, genetic modifications and chemicals doing god knows what to your system. THERE'S your problem. But it's easier for a lazy nation drunk on plutocracy and pseudo-capitalism to shame people with no power instead of corporations.

If we're going to get off our asses for anything, we need to get off them to demand clean air, clean water, and clean, REAL food. 

food safety is the only arena i figure they have a reason to come in.

personal pet peeve?  sugar subsidies to multibillion dollar corporations that make sugar so expensive that corn syrup is the preferred cheap sweetener.  and way worse for you.

but, then again, i have a pet peeve about agricultural subsidies altogether.  they do nothing for most family farmers.  instead they go into the pockets of big agribusiness who has the money to lobby to keep them.  vicious cycle.

(uhm.  i lived for a while on the family farm... yes, there's a chip on my shoulder)

i lost 15 pounds the year i had no car and had to walk everywhere (or take the bus.)

yes--i agree with neva (2nd time today, lol) and wyrdling.

i feel like burning shit down today.

Why are Italians thinner, ram?  What is the food culture like?

Dina we cook more, and meal time is our social/family time. food is important and the # 1 quality of it is the love it was cooked with. It's our culture and we are proud as hell about it :-P. Italians are also more aware about fashion and beauty, and too much overweight just does not fit our culturale idea of beauty. Too bad silicon is getting very popular :-(
I lived in the usa for a year in my 20, i ate at any time and tried out every possible food, i gained over 30 pound :-D. I'm glad they are gone now:-P

I'm not a fan of government intervening in every aspect of our lives either.  But, they do it just the same. Smoking bans, trans fat and salt bans in restaurants, etc.

It is unfortunate that obesity is at the level that it is with young people nowadays. Between television and video games, children don't play outside as much as in the past. Consequently, they are more sedentary and prone to chronic diseases such as diabetes. Children do not get adequate levels of Vitamin D from the sun. Parents' fears of abductions keep kids indoors.  Its very sad really.  I read recently that kids that play outside laugh more (and are happier).

I think that the school's lunch programs need improvement.  Our school district mostly serves frozen and canned items in their hot lunch program.  None of it is appetizing. They do offer salads and yogurt but not many of the kids opt to eat the healthy items.  I think it is a positive start removing soda machines from the buildings and replacing with healthy alternatives.  When I was a kid, we never had soda or candy machines in school...it was unheard of.

"But, they do it just the same. Smoking bans, trans fat and salt bans in restaurants, etc."

Exactly, just a few examples, and all of it's wrong, wrong, wrong. 

My friend is Calabrese, she went to Florence and she said that some of her friends were poking her in the arms and stomach teasingly being "get rid of it, get rid of it."  She said to me in Italy, people poke your fat until you lose weight :D Clearly not as taboo a subject as in America.

I still don't get why that makes Italians thinner, though.  Is there less preservatives?  Do they eat less?

Dina,yes, we eat less, and our cities are old smaller and not builted for cars (
It can take hours to find a parking place), so we walk more. And yes, as you pointed out, if you are overweight you get looked at as if you are offending your own beauty :-P. And that is a sin against the community ;-). I can see how funny this might be for a non italian :-o

"And although I think there is toughening needed to help some people become healthier"

I didn't actually mean the government though. I was thinking more as a societal change.. as I'm a big believer in pre-emptive health.. don't do anything bad to begin with.. - overeating, smoking, too much driving etc. Peer pressure. Eh it's already happening. So more isn't really needed. 

You know what else I thought was funny?  My Calabrese friend had a date with a Sicilian guy in Florence.  He said to her, how about we go out to eat... at your house :).  And he made (loose meaning of the word made, more like suggested) her make him coffee and gnocchi and then said it wasn't like his mom's :D

Not meant to be offensive or anything, I'm just fascinated, being an American, that he had her cook for him on the first date and got away with it.

Liz, what do you mean by "societal change?"  I mean, what with all this talk of responsibility, the ball is in everybody's court.  How will it happen?  What will push us to make it happen?  If the engine of societal change is going to run on personal responsibility, we need some REAL BIG incentive :)<!--Session data-->

Dina, the sicilian guy is narrow, but you see my point: he was testing his date by how good she is in the kitchen!

Dina, it's happening in the US with the economy stalling and everyone looking at spending on priorities. Health care is an issue and the best solution is pre-emptive. And we are becoming more conscious of this. Really there is no more excuses. If one wants to be healthy and if one wants to be thin than one knows how - ie dieting, lifestyle shows etc. Not saying it's easy just saying it's accessable in a way that it didn't used to be. With pluto in sag it was expand and upsize and this was the norm. With pluto in cap compassion for anything you whine about is out. There is a mixed response to Kevin Smith and I think that it's the right response.. gets one thinking.

Myself I am Canadian so my view is different. But despite having accessable healthcare i still live a pre-emptive with my health lifestyle.. partly because i agree with our system and don't want to burden it. Mostly because I hate feeling sick. Is this not common sense? Pluto in cap? The common sense transformation?

Also for myself I am thin and find it difficult to gain weight. i've found very little sympathy for my situation. Common sense has made it a priority for me to eat high density food. Many people think i'm vegetarian. if i were i'd waste away to nothing. if i work out regularly then i also add more protein to my diet so my body has something to burn.

A lot of my changes in life came from travelling to europe and seeing how other people live. It taught be that just because is one way doesn't mean it can't be another.

Hey Liz,

I know what it's like finding it difficult to gain weight.  I've wanted to weigh 140 pounds for the longest time, it's been an unreachable goal.  The closest I ever got was 134 pounds, but my body HATES gaining weight.  It will lose those pounds within 24 hours however possible.  I think I lose pounds just breathing!  

an illustration of US food subsidies (sugar gets a lot, and look where it is in the pyramid!)

found here:

http://consumerist.com/2010/03/why-a-salad-costs-more-than-a-big-mac.html

"I would like to see the government stay OUT of my business completely and let people solve their own personal problems"

Amen!! I second everything Goddess has said on this thread.

@wyrdling--that food/subsidy pyramid is a very smart post!

Personally, I would like to see some of that Monsanto subsidy money diverted to people who grow their own veggies.  It might be impractical to administer, but it would certainly encourage a more functional food supply system.

"Smoking bans, trans fat and salt bans in restaurants, etc."

I'm indifferent toward salt bans (almost everyone has a salt shaker at their own table), and think trans fat and smoking bans are good policy.

that's the thing, scorp. people are indifferent to losing freedoms until it starts to hit too close to home. they fail to realize that each freedom encroached upon makes it easier for the next to be trampled.

they may even think it's "good policy" for our government to decide what's in our best interests. i find that thought utterly terrifying.

goddess--there are other freedoms i'm more concerned about reclaiming than the freedom to eat restaurant food that is pre-salted for me.

i suppose that eating meat that hasn't been inspected by the FDA is also a freedom, but it's one i give up gladly.  probably because foodborne illnesses kill more americans every year than terrorism ever has during all of america's history.

this isn't to put trans-fat on the same level as food-borne illness, but you get the point.  some regulation is necessary, and slippery slope arguments along the lines of "today it's my salt, tomorrow it's X" are at best unpersuasive.

"Some may even think it's "good policy" for our government to decide what's in our best interests.  i find that thought utterly terrifying."

I also find that thought utterly terrifying.  But it's also a scarecrow argument.  The government isn't deciding I want a smoking or trans fat ban, those really are my opinions and to assert otherwise is flat out paranoid.

More generally, a lot of regulations by the government are enacted in response to popular concerns.  Here the government isn't deciding anything for us.  Citizens are deciding that corporations and businesses are cutting too many corners (here with food preparation) and won't respond to private, responsible individuals asking nicely.  So there is recourse to government regulation.

(I gotta go for now, but I'm taking this conversation in good humor and will respond to any questions or clarifications)

"probably because foodborne illnesses kill more americans every year than terrorism ever has during all of america's history."

Really. And where did you find this out? 

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no5/mead.htm