I just read this story and sorry to say it it totally grossed me out. Being adopted and knowing how that feels, in terms of confusion about my originas and parentage, I just cannot get my head around what this kid is going to face later

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9077506/Sex-change-British-man-gives-birth-to-son.html

I don't believe that there is any *right* to have children. I believe strongly that if you make certain choices, and a sex change is one, you forgo any rights there may be in that area of life. On the other hand I know my views are extreme in this regard due my own childhood experience and all my reading in this area... (I'm not even very happy with same sex couples having kids tbh).

Does anyone agree that male mothers are a step too far?

I recognize your right to be unhappy with same sex and/or transexual couples having kids, although I personally disagree with it.  

But that doesn't mean that certain people shouldn't have the right to have kids and become parents.  The world needs more good parents, and it sounds like this man could very well be a great one.

I love you.

But, I'm sorry, I don't agree.

"Grossed-out" is an understatement. That person is an "IT".... and if you ask me , purposely did this to "rub finger in our faces".

C'mon.... born female , had a sex change operation , but the uterus wasn't removed?!?!?!  Certainly spells "intentional insult" to me.

Ok Ok Ok..... this story has my Saggie Mars on a rampage. Sure , the human body has been proven quite adaptable.... even changeable.

Hmmm..... :::evil grin:::  perhaps  THIS  might be an interesting method of punishment for rapists?? ((if only it would be a pig growing inside him))((or an alien from the movie Aliens))

I'm looking at it entirely from the kid's point of view, since I have some idea of how it's going to fuck around with the kid's head

Still, at least the kid will know who the parent is, even if he/she won't know whether to call him/her Mom or Dad ;)      I have no idea who my real father was which bugs me to this day

My Ma thought she had a *right* to have kids so she adopted two of us. She was wrong

Glenn - I am confused by your statements. Are you suggesting that this man had a sex change operation, and left his uterus in just to somehow intentionally insult society?

This is a challenge for my open-mindedness, I must admit.

As long as children have good strong role models in their lives of both sexes, I think it honestly doesn't matter who parents - as long as they are loving.

Just because I had two parents a male and a female doesn't mean my childhood was happy.

@hq..... that's how my Saggie Mars takes it.  I always thought that in sex change operations (women to men) , the uterus was one of the first things to be removed..... before adding new "male" things. Somehow I just can't picture a person intentionally leaving "her" female organs in before proceeding with adding new male parts. It just goes against the principles of having the procedure(s) done in the first place.

My opinion.... I think something "stinks" about the whole story. Neptune in Pisces.... that'll really blur the boundaries of what is "male" and "female".

@glenn - No, the uterus doesn't have to be removed.  

As for the principles of having the procedure done... the main principle that I'm aware of is that someone is born with one gender, but identifies with the other.  So they undergo a painful and difficult surgery, in order to appear to the world as they feel on the inside.

It's not a case of who 'parents' egi, but of 'who is your parent'. Or rather, as the kid will no doubt phrase it growing up, "Who is my mother, who is my father?"  Would you like to be one of only three people in the world who came out of the womb of a MAN?

Having struggled with this kind of 'blood identity' anomoly all my life, as all adopted kids do and many born by IVF etc (see any online chatroom for people in this position), I just think it's plain wrong to bring a child into the world in this ambiguous manner. I'm fascinated by others' ractions and replies, but that's my firm belief

Hmmm.... well , this is the first time someone (in the middle of??) a sex change operation has become pregnant "and" birthed. The timing of it all , along with various other news about "gays / lesbians rights"..... just makes this highly suspect. And by extention..... planned.

EDIT:

If this person "felt" like she was supposed to be a "male" all along.... why carry the child through to full term?? Seems contradictory to the original goal: stop being a female , and become a male.

Many people who undergo sex reassignment surgery then go on to marry someone of the traditional opposite sex.  So in this case, it's entirely possible (and even probable) that the female-to-male transgender man married a woman.

So from the perspective of the kid, he is likely to have a mom and a dad.  And since the details of the parents identity have been kept private, everyone would probably assume he came out of his mother.

@Glenn - I am going to go ahead and guess that you don't know anyone who is transgender.

The goal of most female-to-male transgender individuals is not to "stop being a female and become a male."  It is to appear to the world as they identify on the outside.

There are many reasons why female-to-male transexuals don't also go ahead and have their uterus removed.  One is that if you do remove your uterus, it can be very difficult and expensive to have kids later in life.  One common alternative is to save some eggs, and then have them carried to term in a surrogate.  This is an expensive process and isn't always an option.

I also believe we need more good parents, and there's no ethical reason that I can think of to discriminate against an adoptive parent because of their sexuality or gender. If a loving, healthy adult willingly accepts the challenge of raising a child, then God bless them. Gay couple, single person, transgendered people are NO more of a risk to children than any conventional "Mom & Dad".... It takes a village, anyway.

If you decide to give your child up for adoption, I think you should be able to have a choice for or against any of those options. But for a child that would otherwise have no parents? Well, I don't think the government should be making moral decisions for grown adults that can think for themselves and decide if they are capable of raising a child. They should just follow the normal protocol like anyone else that adopts.

But this story is NOT one about adoption. Now I know that men can get pregnant (I've been wondering about this) and if he can have a natural birth and breast feed, then that would make me happy for him and his baby. If he cannot, because of his choices, then I'm a little uncomfortable with that. Some woman cannot, but it's not always their choice. I know c-sections are extremely common choice made by women/doctors, and that doesn't make happy. But those decisions are not to be determined by me because it's not my body and it's not my baby, and I'm not a doctor (yet). So again, I say God bless them. Life is a miracle in all its forms. Honor it. I think that making judgements on a child's life based on his/her parents is completely unfair and potentially more harmful than what is actually experienced as a member of a unique family unit.

On a similar note, I advocate methods of pregnancy prevention (not having sex, condoms, and non-barrier methods) because I hope to reduce the number of abortions- NOT to inhibit the number of babies. That's a matter of unplanned pregnancy. But the one described in the article seems very intentional, so I would give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they know what they are doing.

I don't believe anyone who has normal parentage (however inadequate or oppressive) can have any idea how it messes with your head to be 'screwed up' in this respect

These may be great parents, but sooner or later the child is going to feel a freak. And people who are so desperate to have kids at any cost, often don't make very good parents. My Ma for example had no concept of 'her' children not being entirely her own creatures, to mould as she wished - we didn't exist as separate people to her, even though we weren't even her biological children. To any observer however, she'd have been an 'ideal parent' for adopting: stable marriage, enough money, nice home, really wanted children, father a respected doctor etc etc. Nature was right however - she's the last person who should have had kids!

Sorry but this kind of stuff really triggers me as I can't help but feel it's going to cause the kid/s huge problems later. And I think the child is bound to find out, esp if the couple split up

I have known quite a few gender-bending transsexuals btw: some fine people, some pretty screwed up themselves.

@Blessed Place - I'm sorry to hear about your confusion/unhappiness. :-(

Not totally clear on your conclusion though.  Is the thought that same sex and trans parents should not be allowed to have kids, because the children are likely to be screwed up when they grow up?

I think if you have the organs then ok. But it is messed up.

I do think that a kid is going to feel screwed up - and even grossed out - finding out that their ostensibly male parent physically gave birth to them, yes. Physical parentage relates to the identity in some sense which is hard to describe to people who've never needed to question their own

I didn't say that same sex people shouldn't be allowed to become parents - I said it made me uncomfortable. But childhood is so fucked anyway these days with all the dysfuctional step-families, absent fathers, sex change ops, IVF for 60yr olds etc etc, that I guess having two Dads or two Moms is not so feaky for a kid as it once was ;)

I do know kids hate feeling, and being, 'different': and physical birth to a man is pretty damn different

I'm talking specifically about bringing kids into the world deliberately here, btw, not about who should and who should not adopt. I'm sure a home with loving same-sex parents is much better than any orphange.

egiyablu "As long as children have good strong role models in their lives of both sexes, I think it honestly doesn't matter who parents - as long as they are loving.Just because I had two parents a male and a female doesn't mean my childhood was happy"

egiyablu, I'm quoting your whole post because I couldn't have said it better. Every child should be a WANTED and LOVED child. Having hetero male/female parents doesn't by any means guarantee this! I'm more worked up over the number of accidental pregnancies in this country (nearly half, I read on one source?) than I am over a situation like this.

Now that men HAVE given birth, being grossed out really isn't helping anyone! I'm sorry BP, but this is a stigma!

Personal experiences generate personal feelings. These may not be true for everyone in the same position. I think it wonderful that the tradtional view of gender is being challenged and brought to light.

This is a great clip and well said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLnn96n3Lpg

Thanks blue, that clip makes me cry :')

@Blessed Place - I respect that your personal experiences have colored your perspective.  But I don't think it's fair that anyone's personal feelings should take away someone else's right to have biological kids.

Ok, off to bed!

You are SO ignorant.

Same sex couples and transgendered people are human beings capable of loving a great, great deal.

"These may be great parents, but sooner or later the child is going to feel a freak. And people who are so desperate to have kids at any cost, often don't make very good parents." 

Wow. Just wow. Where the hell do you get these ideas from?? How does really wanting to bring to life a beautiful child into this world equate to being a bad parent? This is so absolutely ridiculous, you should be embarrassed with yourself.

Congratulations, you've just generalized a whole group of people. 

Personal attacks are not appreciated here :(

BP, I understand you have personal feelings rooted in your own real life experience that relates to the topic. I wanted to share my perspective. I hope you don't regret posting this thread - I think it was a legitimate question and I got a lot out of the discussion... <3

Um, I think if we brought in a bunch of gay and transgendered folks in this thread, they'd be pretty offended.... "Attacked" if you will. 

I'm not gonna sit back and read arrogant comments about people fully capable of being truly amazing, loving and wonderful parents who may undoubtedly raise a bright, beautiful and accepting child. 

According to BP these parents are bound to be poor caregivers since they are oh so desperate to have a child. Moreover, their children are gonna be "fucked up" mentally over it. That's a VERY bold statement to make.

All of that defense has already been respectfully articulated on this thread by numerous commenters.

I didn't find her post very "respectful"

A lot of times people ask questions here because this group tends to be both diverse and tolerant. If we stuck only to things about which we know everything, we would never learn.

I haven't read the original link yet because I'm on the Shiny but I'm in the "the world needs more good parents" camp, generally. There's nothing in my past that would give me any insight into unusual parents, so I can't speak to that.

But I did want to also step up and defend BP. She is a long time board member and not someone who brings up things to be insulting. I've always found her to be reasonable, thoughtful, and well spoken.

*sidles into the thread carefully*

Personally, I can imagine it would affect a child psychologically growing up with a parent that was once a woman, then a man with a uterus, then gave birth to him/her. Not necessarily because of their home life, as most children I've met are amazingly creative thinkers, and open. But in relation to the child's outside environment, and how those outside of his/her home treat and react to his/her story.

That's not something that can be controlled, or subdued, or even predicted, but I imagine the child could catch some serious heat for his unique family growing up. How he/she handles and reacts to the outside influences is also unpredictable. I have no doubt that men can be just as good if not better nurturers and mothers than some of the women I've met, or heard about. But this is outside that mental space for me personally.

Transgendered is one thing, Intersex is another, surrogacy among the gay/lesbian community is something else, and the GLBT community is another unique subject of it's own. I place this story into it's own category, and as my opinion was solicited, I find it hard to read about, and do worry about the child, and the psychological motivations, and reasoning of his parents. I also have a hard time not classifying someone with a uterus as a woman. Not that all women need one, but if one has one, I would call them a member of the female sex, and perhaps male gender identified. There's also something about the article that seems too vague, and with no proof of the child's existence....I have my suspicions about it really being possible, and what will happen now.

Just my .02 cents on the topic. : )

I could be completely off my nut... But the way the world is evolving these days that child may grow up in, or be a part of creating, a far more tolerant world.

Adrogyny as an idea has been around for quite some time. Men in women's bodies and women in men's bodies is also not new. (Go back thousands of years.) Medical advances have allowed these concepts to manifest physically. The conceptual blurring is becoming visible. Rather more that a woman dressing as a man or a man dressing as a woman.

Fact is, I think that child has as fair a chance of growing up and being a part of our world as much as any child does.

But as usual, such things reported in the media leave me cold. And also leave me with a feeling that since I am being provided by facts that may or may not be reported correctly, I have no basis to form an opinion. I have no clue who this human being is. I cannot assume an agenda or lack of one.

I can, however, imagine a wild array of possibilities both in the creation of this child and the results.

To wit: A cast member posted on FB that she had bought a chest binder. (In the show she is playing a male artist and I've, quite frankly, lost track of her particular self-identification.) I commented that I had just that day bought my first ever padded bra. (Ok. That's a different topic. It's th eonly one that fit me and I needed one!!)   

I am completely with Shannon on this. These boards are for the exchange of ideas... No matter how difficult those ideas are. These are times rife with splitting. We can succeed together or fail on our own... (I stole that last sentence.)

I feel like since things are changing - even if it's still somewhat "Stigmatized" most of the younger generations are more tolerant of these kinds of things and in 10 years, we will probably be even more tolerant and open to it.

So I think while the kids might get teased some, all kids will get teased at some point about some part of their lives, so I honestly don't think it's going to be THAT hard for a kid growing up in the future on with same-sex parents.

I have no doubt that there are as many gay, transgender, two-spirit etc people on the planet now as there were 5,000 years ago (per capita). They have always been here. They will always be here. WE will always be here. I'm one of them.

Unfortunately, there are many ideas, beliefs and things we've been told that make people different from us hard to understand.

If I could be anything other than I am and live a privilaged heterosexual life, I would. It would be FAR, FAR easier than living with daily discrimination and being asked to leave the public bathroom constantly - or holding on coz I can't handle it today. These people (in the article) are who they are. Like you and I, they're trying to get by in this crazy, crazy world we all share. I think they're extremely brave and due to the shit they will have already experienced in their life in a heteronormative world, I have no doubt that there is a abundant compassion and understanding.

I have no idea what kind of parents they will be - but who ever does?

Children are only adversely affected by things they're taught to be affected by.

If a child is brought up to believe that being YOURSELF and being true to that self is important, regardless of stereotypes, hatred and ingraned prejudices, then that child will be fine - regardless of the fact his father has a vagina (or two dads, two moms), or not.

A child that's given love, respect, firm boundaries and a good, solid foundation of emotional stability will not suffer.

If you teach the child to believe that you must supress the self, do what society says is right because societal stereotypes rule all, and blanche in the face of people feeling their outsides should match their pyschology and they are wrong, immoral, or evil, then yes - you'll have a fucked up child. And you should be ashamed of yourself, to boot.

To me, this should be a non-issue. Love breeds love. Hate breeds hate.

Humor break................

Ok continue.................................

Loving parents are loving parents and exactly what children need.  I have to agree that there are some general statements and judgements here that make me uncomfortable.

I am comfortable with same sex and transgender parents so long as they are loving and giving parents. I think we need more loving, excellent parents and less judgement.

I think if men can give birth it makes a mockery of women's ability to give birth & it wouldn't surprise me that science & Western Medicine would be spending (likely) millions to do that.

...in this case the person was female then changed to male and I guess regretted the loss of that ability enough to switch back enough to be able to give birth.

Also, if this site becomes a site where people are attacked for their opinion, as newsl4ng did to BP, then I'll disappear. :/

Jilly, I spent the entire day trying to verbalize how I feel about this, but you put it so much better than anything I had in mind.

And news14ng, if you really want a person to hear and try to understand your point, you shouldn't start by telling them they're ignorant. This is a discussion, you're bound to find opposing views in a discussion.

@newsl4ng - You seemingly did not read BP's original post properly. You have every right to disagree with someone's views (and even the explained reasoning behind them) but its extremely disrespectful to use the language you chose which made it a personal attack & as you can see it is very offensive to all of us.

To use your own words:  "This is so absolutely ridiculous, you should be embarrassed with yourself."

Indeed.