i think, above all other relationships, the mother/daughter one is the most issue-filled. more than fathers and son.... but men, weigh in

i adored my mother. then hated her with a passion you cannot believe. and now i just accept her for her.

but i will admit, one of the factors that made me move to the far north was that relationship. i just wanted her out of my face. i could not deal with her in the same city. it was all judgement and fucking up-tightness and she drove me absolutely bonkers. it was like i always was trying to please her. nothing was good enough for her. so i moved myself and the kids far the hell away.

now, we enjoy each other in the brief times we get together. we can talk on the phone and it's very cool. we talk about stuff neither one of us probably ever thought we could talk about.

i miss her.

but i still don't want to be in the same city. how you say? oil and water? cliche cliche where are you.

the stories i could tell.  

I think mother and son is the craziest.

oh really? why?

i like to think despite all the shit we've been through my son is alright. you know, with my mothering. he's very outspoken. and feels free to be so. he has no problem telling me what's what if he thinks i'm off track.

on the other hand... i hink he's really looking forward to going back to halifax on saturday. i may play some small part in that.  but i do say small.

I don't know... The whole Oedipal thing...

I think father/daughter is the most fucked up. So many women have daddy issues that affects them for their ENTIRE lives, myself included.

Hell, John Mayer even wrote a song about:

"You see that skin? It's the same she's been in since the day she saw him walking away. Now I'm left, cleaning up the mess he made".

man, I don't know where to start.  my relationship with my mother was like you describe michele.  My mother isn't living any more but when she was alive, I couldn't bear to be in the same city either. She used to talk "at" me, not "to" me.  Had no clue who I was because she never bothered to find out.  Near the end, we achieved a peace of sorts.  I appreciated what she did give me - opportunity, intelligence, travel, etc but gah, she was an emotional walking disaster. 

And fathers? which one was worse, my bio-dad or my step father.  Each took a crack at making sure I was really screwed up.  I am coming to a certain level of peace with my bio-dad but it's taken a lot of time and work but it's going okay.  My stepfather, I can't even articulate it....

those words from the John Mayer song ring really true to me.

That's true luci, but I feel like that doensn't make them less womanly. If a guy has a bad relationship with his mom, I feel like he doesn't know how to be a man. 

I'm just speaking out of my ass right now, and in extremely broad generalities.

I think it depends on the parties involved! :)

Yeah, true...

So, Ladies, what kind of aspects do you have to your Moon?  What sign is it in?  Which house?  What's going on in your 4thH?

Anyone with Pluto-Moon square?  That's what I have.  10thH Leo Pluto square 1stH Scorpio Moon.  Aqua 4th, with Chiron tightly conjunct IC.

I have Moon Mars in Gem in the 9th, sextile Venus in Aries in the 7th, sextile Jupiter in Aquarius in the 5th, opposite Uranus in Sadge in the 3rd...

How about Neptune square Moon? And Moon opposite Mars? Along with Sun and Merc in the 4th? And Cancer rising?

Yeah. Got me some Mom stuff.

I have the Pluto-Moon square and major issues w mom growing up

Moon in Gemini 10th house in a t-square with Mars/Uranus/pluto in Virgo in the 1st house opposite Chiron in the 7th. Moon is the apex.

@ elsa... that's what my son said when i told him about this thread. EXACTLY what he said!!!!

but then i said... you know... we need categories to discuss things. which is a direct quote from one of the most awesome women in my life. you can shift the categories. change them. work them around. but you can hardly talk about anything without starting with a category of some sort.

and yes. in the end. in all depends of the people involved. but the, as soon as you say that... how do you talk about these things....

omg. someone take me to the nuthouse NOW.

::starts the car::

Hehehehehehehe

@ peppermint don't get me started about my moon!!

sextile neptune. square mars. trine pluto. trine uranus. opposite sun. sextile chiron. 6th house cap.

4th house, scorpio w/ neptune.

as far as we can determine, my mom's moon is in scorpio.

i thought the lice thread was making we scream. aaaaaahhhhhhh.

but... back to reality. my mother and i get along like a house on fire now. i have so much compassion for her. as i said earlier... her mother FUCKED HER UP. i never knew this until about two years ago. i got her talking... she was SOBBING. when my mother says her mother was "mean" that has got to be really bad.

i'm very interested in the generational stuff... but hard to get info when everyone is flippin' dead.

LOL C... thanks for the ride.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NpvZ68EIgA

Heh heh heh :)

Oh, Michele 

Hmm. Not sure what to make of my astrology with my mom...my moon is in Gemini (cusp) in the 7th, sextile my 6H sun in Aries. My mom's sun is on the cusp of Aries and Taurus. I have lots of squares to my moon too, though...

But I love my mom! We have problems with politics -- she is pretty hardcore Republican, and I definitely swing more Democrat. We decided not to discuss it -- and if it happens, we stay as civil as we can, and if it digresses, we just stop right away. She's pretty black and white, very strong personality, but she's a good mom. She's very dedicated to mothering, overall. She had a spazz when she and my father divorced when I was 18, but I was gone by then, so I missed that. Younger siblings told me it was awful, and it was hard to talk to her at that time. But being a mom makes me basically erase any aggravation I had with her. For her to have raised 5 kids essentially alone makes me say "yes ma'am, you have you some crazy" :) I don't begrudge her her sometimes controlling ways -- she controls when she's worried about us and feels she can't help us -- and I know I can say "thanks mom, but I got this," and she'll still keep talking to me. I like that she'll say "you need to be good to your husband and give the guy a break" when I'm being bitchy, and she'll tell me I need to come to grips with the fact that I can be a good mom and have a job too, even though she didn't work til we were a lot older. 

In all, I feel lucky. Not sure where all her placements are...

"So, Ladies, what kind of aspects do you have to your Moon?  What sign is it in?  Which house?  What's going on in your 4thH?"

Boy, Peppermint, that is the crux of the matter; yes ?! Whoa...

My 4th is in Sag., and it's empty. My mother abandoned me when I was nearly 5 y/o.

8th house Jupiter/Aries opposes my 2nd house Libra moon; both squaring my NN/Venus conj. I ended up with a heinously abusive stepmother (who is a Scorpio), while never hearing from or about my natural mother again. I obviously don't have a relationship with my mother, and my stepmother and I haven't spoken in 22 years -- and it was on and off before that. However, this dynamic has left me free to completely invent the kind of parent I wanted to be. I've by no means been perfect, but I feel that I've surpassed anything I could have been to my kids; had I been under the influence of either one of those women. Unlike them, I have been absorbed by my concern about the quality of relationship I'll have with my kids, and even how I'll be remebered when I'm gone. They KNOW that they matter, and that they're cherished; which is a universe away from what I can say about my parents and what they taught me.

le soleil. that sucks so fucking bad.

I have Mother issues, NOT father issues, so it's easier for me to relate to this. But I will surmise that anyone who DID have problems with their dad growing up probably faced some real trouble/heartache. So I'm saying, I hear you, Luci.

oops. total fail on paying attention to luci's comment!!!! sorry.

my father just wasn't really there. so i've totally been focussing on the mother business.

hugs to luci. and my apologies for being so self-centered.

Hmm... my relationship with my mom has always been good, though I was a little bitter that she didn't stand up for me more against my dad. That just taught me a lesson to be a mama bear. :)

I would never want to be like her, but I love her and we get along most of the time.

Ladies, the reason I asked about your Moon-related placements/aspects is because taking a good look and doing in-depth research (heartily recommend Donna Cunningham's Moon Signs if you haven't already read it) on all my lunar stuff really helped me cement a good understanding of the energies my mom and I had been twisted up in.  Ditto with all the Plutonian and other outer planet stuff.   

I was particularly interested to see if there were any others with Chiron connections to their Moon or 4th house, and I see there are.  Chiron, as wounded healer, really helped me out there too. 

Anyone with similar/different experiences?  And I wish I could personally hug and feed an enormous meal to all who had to go though something painful with their mother.

I must go follow-up on Donna's sight. She is QUITE insightful.

Does she talk about generational stuff? I had a very strange dream recently that remains rather vague... But had the women in my family all lined up. Generations of them... And their sisters and daughters. And it just felt like a whack of trouble. Lots of bitterness (which I no longer really have) and lots of pain. Stuff being passed on and on, with less and less knowing...

I know with my kids I have noted myself repeating patterns that just don't feel like me... But I got into them. SO I have passed some on, too. Though I've tried to repair.

The moon is in my Cancer/12th. This might explain my rather intense thoughts tonight. 

@Peppermint,
My moon is the apex of a t-square with Uranus and Chiron.  I don't know beans about Chiron, though, so I generally don't include it when I'm looking at things.

Like I've said, my mom was my abuser growing up and I spent a lot of time not liking her at all.  We patched things up when I was in my early 20's after I had moved out and was able to process things (and grow up a bit, of course *grins*).

How does Chiron-moon feed into that?

<span style="text-decoration: line-through;">@Michele -- I agree, it sucks, but I think things could have ended up SO far differently than they did; had I not applied my vision and had the will to carry it out. My intention has been full-on consciousness, in mothering my kids.

@Peppermint -- My Chiron stuff is wrapped up in relationships (he's in Pisces in my 7th h., opp. my Pluto/Uranus conj.). I wasn't meant to have parents or a lasting marriage in this life obviously, but I managed to wind up with kids ! The only problem I have with that, is my growing fatigue at never having had a soft place to fall. My life has been cold and austere, but I've managed to be adherent to home-birthing and attachment parenting; with all the hippie trimmings. While I am careful to keep boundaries with my kids, their existence has been my sole source of lasting connection in this lifetime. I knew on some level that this would be the case, so I've tried very hard to do it right. Thanks for the thought of hugs & serving us a gorgeous meal, I personally appreciate it, and it sounds like heaven !

Michelle, SaD, and le soleil:  I'll try to answer your questions by sharing a little of my own experience, and you can extrapolate from there, okay?  For me, Moon-Chiron contacts developed into a major 'life purpose' theme, over a long period of time.  Trying to heal from the abuse and re-parent myself led me on a life-long journey (like Chiron's) that, while not effecting a total and perfect cure, provided me with knowledge and skills to help others with the same kind of wound. 

You may remember me discussing (cryptically) a sacred, Moon-related object of my people that lives in my home and is used to help and support women and girls who've suffered from abuse of any kind.  I can't really talk about it in a public way.  Elsa did a class in the Colliseum (sp?) a long time ago and we took turns looking at each other's chart, and that's when the lights went on re:  Chiron's role (in my case, with a strong lunar flavor) in my chart/life.  I think I was having a Chiron return, too, BTW.  "Oh!" I thought, "so THAT'S why all that stuff happened!"  In order to help others heal, you pretty much have to have bled a little yourself - that's what I took that to mean, anyway.  And check out what I do for a living now:  I work in my Tribe's treatment center, where I pretty much am helping others to heal from our inter-generational holocaust and re-parent themselves using teachings from our ancient culture, living spirituality, and medicines related to that sacred object.  Bingo!

Michelle, yes Donna does discuss generational influences, and it's fascinating.  As is the dream you reported, esp. during the Moon's visit to your Cancer 12thH.  How amazing is that?  I think that's a wonderful dream, you're being shown the 'stuff' you inherited (bitterness) and that now, right now, you can (a) see where it came from and (b) where you can  (with love and respect) send it back to and free yourself.  That's their stuff, not yours, as you know, and your work (and self-removal, so far away!) to keep it from going on to the next gen is heroic.  I salute you Michelle!

SaD, with your t-square of Moon, Chiron and Uranus, I'm guessing that, because of your own experience with your mother (Moon) you are uniquely (Uranus) able to help others heal (Chiron) and liberate (Uranus again) them from old mom-related woundings.  And you're going to do it with steadfast cheer and loyalty in the mix, too!  I'm also guessing that insights and ideas to do this come through in brilliant flashes for you and you're probably really good at it.  I get help to do this from the trine between my 1stH Scorp Moon and 9thH Cancer Uranus.

le_soleil, I'm still very much a rookie with interpreting others' charts, but I'll offer another way to look at your Chiron placement.  Pisces Chiron (wounding and spiritual healing) in the 7th (committed partnerships) opposing your Pluto/Uranus conjunction (deep, powerful, regenerative energy joined with brilliant insight and freedom-loving) just tells me you needed to experience those kinds of issues in relationships so that you could teach others (which you're doing with your lucky children, you're another hero and I salute you!) how best to navigate those kinds of energies.  And the soft place to fall?  It's within you and always has been, but I've found that if we've experienced abandonment at a young age, we may tend to abandon ourselves (especially if we're taking care of a whole bunch of other people to avoid self-care, my personal experience!) until we stop our self-abandonment, with Chiron's help and our own unconquerable desire to have joy in this life. And remember, with the Moon, there's an ebb and a flow to all things, so it won't always be the way it is now.  Change is the only constant I have found.

Please forgive me, ladies, if I have over-stepped my bounds and offered advice where it was not wanted or does not seem to fit.  But I do offer it in the respectful spirit of Chiron - one Moon-related-wounded healer to another.  Also apologies for this killer long post!  I hope you all have a wonderful and joyous day today - I'm off to go dig spuds out of the garden and can some cukes and will check back in later this evening. 

No boundaries breached on my end, Pep.  :)  Thank you very much, that was extremely helpful!  I really get what you're saying, especially since you shared a part of your Chiron story.  :)

Ditto. Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom.

Will be thinking more deeply on this.

"You see that skin? It's the same she's been in since the day she saw him walking away. Now I'm left, cleaning up the mess he made".

*sniff*

My issues are all about mother-daughter.

Pep "I've found that if we've experienced abandonment at a young age, we may tend to abandon ourselves ... until we stop our self-abandonment"

Well said. And very true for me. thank you .

So glad this was helpful! 

I took a look at my transits at astro.com just before I left this morning and yup, nothing but Moon transits coming outta my ears - *a strong desire to think about and discuss at length Moon-related matters*

Had me smiling all the way to work.

Peppermint - thank you so much for your kind words.  I have Moon as the apex planet in a t-square.  My Gemini Moon is in the 10th sq Chiron in the 7th Pisces, just like le soleil.  Chiron opposes my Mars/Uranus/Pluto in virgo in the 1st which also squares the moon in the 10th.  I do feel like I've had to bleed through relationships to offer advice and healing to others. I often have felt like my best advice is for young women seeking help in navigating the world of men and dating.  And I agree about "abandoning myself" - i did that for many years as I lived through an abusive relationship - I gave up on me - it was hard to rescue me though!

And I have to say once again, your work with your Tribe really moves me.  Perhaps it's because aboriginal people are more visible in Canada than in the US.  Not sure why but I see aboriginal people, sometimes street homeless almost daily in downtown Toronto.  I hope so much that they can find their own elders who can help lead them back to their cultures and homes. Thank you !

@Rachel:  I meant to post a reply to you, and totally spaced!  Sorry!  I'm glad the self-abandonment stuff spoke to you, it's so hard not to fall into that sometimes.  I finally decided I deserved to have joy in this life and that's when I realized I'd been abandoning myself.  I don't do it anymore, and found I had all I needed to give myself a 'soft place to fall' as le_soleil so eloquently put it.  I wish for you healing and the gift of self-love.

@Mahchi:  I remember you posting about that abusive relationship, and man am I glad you got out of there!  But I bet you are a gifted teacher and guide now, and how lucky the young women are who get to spend time with you.  And thanks for your kind words, too, about the meaningful work I get to do on behalf of my people; it's very fulfilling for me and I just love it.  As to the lost and homeless you see around your city, yes, there's a very long and very true story behind all of that.  Maybe someday our roads will meet up and we can sit down and have a good visit about it and lots more.  I would really like that.

Well, I seem to have issues with all of the above - father, mother AND step-mother. I'm realizing that Pluto moving over my moon is bringing all of this to a head.

My chart has my Cap moon square chiron, moon trine Saturn and Moon opposing ascendant (or conjunct descendant - six in one hand, half a dozen in another....), moon square Jupiter & Uranus, moon inconjunct Mercury, moon semi-square Neptune. Let's see, that pretty much leaves just Venus, Mars and Pluto untouched (except for the Pluto transit now).

As for abandonment issues, my drug-addicted mother pretty much ignored me from day one. I had two hernia operations as an infant because I cried so much from lack of attention. Never really had any kind of a mother figure until my megalomanic step-mother came along and then it took me 30 years to realize all of the strings attached to anything that came from her. As for Dad, I don't think he's familiar with the words "nurture" or "kindness". The gift that I am coming to acknowledge is my ability to stand on my own. And that sometimes, blood is NOT thicker than water.

Thanks for the ability to just spew for a few minutes. I needed that.

@Peppermint --Thank you for your response to my post. I only just now found it, I really appreciate your thoughts. Of course, you are right. I did way too much caretaking in my marriage, and it really was about me, and not facing my own stuff. 'When you know better, you do better.' I love to hear that you're helping young people to heal, with your tribes sacred objects and ways. I am part Lakota, and am all too familiar with ancestral wounding; especially that which has become so much a defining factor in so many contemporary Native Americans' lives. A'ho, to you. *hugs*