Horrible, horrible problem and I mean hideous.

Add your impressions and/or experiences

I've told the story before in other threads, but it's appropriate here (I feel like I talk about it a lot, I'm sorry. But on the other hand it influenced my entire being so...):

That's why my dad kidnapped me when I was a year old.  They had broken up before I was born, but he managed to sweet talk her into getting back together. Swore he'd change. He had been abusive (physically; made her have two jobs while she was pregnant and he spent her money to take other women out on dates). She tried to make it work, but then left and filed for divorce. He waltzed into my mom's parents house, where we were living and snatched me up while she was at work. Dropped me at his own parent's house and took off. He wanted to punish her, and told her if he tried to get me back, he'd kill her. Needless to say, she was afraid to get me back for many years. 

She finally got me back when I was 8. Never, ever said a bad word about him, though. She always told me that she'd never keep me from him and if I wanted to see him, she'd do whatever she could to make it happen. I was always awed by that when I was old enough to understand it. She must have been terrified it'd happen again; but then, she was a stronger wiser person at that point, too.

I tried to have a relationship with him for many years, but soon discovered that he was what his side of the family had always said about him - all the things my mother never said. I think she wanted me to discover all that on my own, not to let her opinion of him color mine. And boy, did I figure it out on my own. He's an immature, a coward, a liar, a selfish asshole. He never held a job in his life, always got out of responsibilities, a womanizer, and a wife beater, stole money from his parents...you name it. He's been married 5 times (four kids with three of them) and one of his wives committed suicide.

Never laid a hand on us kids in anger, though, but then, he'd have to be around to do that. 

Just...not someone I want to be around. Especially not when my mom died and all he could do was bash her. Oh no. No thank you, asshole.

 Spent many years in turmoil as a kid, and nearly all of my abandonment issues now stem from the whole thing. It fucked me up good, but I try to compensate for it.

Sad, sad times, but in the end I'm stronger for them and they made her tough as nails, too, rest her soul.

Anyway, Dad's a January 1st Capricorn and Mom's a Gemini.  

Oh my gosh Luci, I must've missed all the other times you talked about it.  I had no idea you'd been through all that, that's terrible!  I'm glad you were able to survive that (emotionally).

My mom is also a Gemini, and my dad a Capricorn, like yours Luci.

My parents haven't divorced yet, although my moms most recent claim of divorce was just a couple months ago (always crying wolf).  They've dragged my brother and I through so much emo drama.  Well, mostly my mom.  I've been there for her for yeeaaars (as a daughter should) and sided with her 99% of the time.  But after seeing that she hasn't done much to change her situation, I'm completely fed up and annoyed.  Pluto is transiting my moon and is almost at exact conjunction, which I think had opened my eyes and has me finally putting my foot down.  From here on out I'm just staying the fuck out of it!

Haha....Saturn goes into Libra and I'm hell-bent on moving away from my folks exactly for the reason above.  And me moving is their worst nightmare. 

I'm not doing it in spite of them, I just feel like it would be best for my emotional well-being because I have a hard time separating their shit from mine, thus bringing it into the psyche of my own marriage and family.

I can't really speak to this as I'm right in the middle of it and it makes me want to throw up to read this.  I have committed myself to telling my small son nothing but that his daddy is wonderful and that he loves him very much, but I'm sure he reads otherwise from my body language all the time and all I can do is try my best.  I consider it my job to encourage my son to love who he wants.  I don't know what else to do but I know we are in some majorly bad shit right now as my son won't answer the phone to me when he's at his dad's house.

((((Jessica)))) It WILL get better, just have faith and always keep your eye on the fact that whatever you do , you do for the sake of your son.  I found that kept me from  fighting and crap that I might otherwise have got involved in.

Luci~~ Your mother sounds like an incredible lady. Wow! What an experience you had.

(((Jessica))) Best wishes to you and your son.

When my ex and I separated, soon after divorced, my girls were 13 & 17. I naively thought at the time, since they were older, it would somehow be easier, for them. I question that now, and no longer think age really has much to do with it, divorce affects everyone in the family unit. Period.

Right from the beginning I took full responsibilty for the divorce, and in fact, was the one that  wanted it. Have briefly mentioned here in other posts my husbands abusiveness, but the bottom line is we just didn't mesh. After 17 years(yes, we married young), I just couldn't do it anymore. Anyway..I took all the responsibilty, just boned up to it, and let everyone, family..friends..daughters..think it was all my issue(s). In retrospect, more honesty on my part with others, instead of staying mum, I think would have been better..but some things are just hard to share with others, especially when they are really out there and you feel it is likely they will not believe it anyway.

My ex..he met his next wife 5 months after we separated, and married her a few months later..after enormous pressure on me to expediate our divorce.  Truth is though, that was fine with me. I really, really wanted him out of my life. And there is another place I was 'wishful' thinking and naive..we have children together, he will NEVER be completely out of my life. 

So he and the soon-to-be wife immediately got down to the business as trying to instill her as the 'mother' of my daughters. Would tell them constantly that I was NOT their mother, she was. His family backed that and embellished on it 100%..and my family relations are non-existent, so my girls were constantly influenced by only his side. Maybe that is good..at least there was no tug-of-war. I constanly received phone calls from the new woman berating me for anything and everything that ever happened in our marriage(no matter if there was any truth in it or not)..and was repeatedly told she was the new mom of my girls, that I didn't know what being a mother meant. That hurts alot, even when you know it isn't  true.

My ex upon our separation, suddenly became the 'cool' dad. You know. Money was no problem, time was no problem..Mr. Fun, Fun, Fun. UGH. And me, well I was so strapped other than making the bills and putting food on the table, that was all my daughters got from me. 

His games and manipulations took a real toll on my daughters. Now that some years have gone by, they often come to me with 'stuff' that dad told them about me(some true, most not), and of course, he went out of his way to concoct his sainthood in their eyes. I never lie to my girls, nor avoid a direct question when they bring it to me. I do not, nor ever have, laid stuff out for them for my own sake, but if they are doing the questioning, I do my best to be honest about what they are asking, and stay on that subject..and not bring anything else into it that they didn't ask about or maybe weren't ready for.

When my eldest turned 18, she went out on her own. My youngest chose to move in with her grandparents at 15. She just this past year, came back to me. His games took a toll on them, on all of us. I should have known that was how it would go..I was with him for a long time, but I really hoped or again was just too naive, and expected him to be an adult and responsible when we divorced. LOL...people can and do change, and then again, sometimes some don't. Some absolutely like being the way they are..and seems as of now, he is one of them.

I mentioned my own situation on the blog and I've talked about it before.  One of the worst situations I've witnessed lately is that of a relatively new friend.  Her husband left her and moved in with a woman who until six months prior had been a next door neighbor.  Both families have 7 year old boys.  The child of my girl friend does not see that his father left his mother for another woman.  He believes his father left him for another son.  This child is SO angry.  Mom doesn't seem to know what to do with him and dad (I'm told) alternates between ignoring him and making confusing statements about mom.  

I have worked hard for the last twelve years to deal with my anger and avoid bashing men in general and their father specifically to my children.  I think that's a key point here.  If you cannot claim your own anger and deal with it appropriately you cannot expect your children to know what to do with theirs.   They just feel it coming off of us in waves and don't know how to frame it or contain it.  

Divorced parents sabotaging each other with their kids...both of my brothers have dealt with this.

My oldest brother was married with a little boy, not even 2 years old when his wife took their son while he was working one day and moved from NC back to VT to be with another man. She asked the police for a restraining order on him and he hasn't seen his son since. He's 7 years old now. 

My other older brother is divorced with two girls. He moved to NC to be closer to our mom and his wife still lives in VT with their daughters. She recently decided that she didn't want to deal with the oldest daughter (has anger problems) so she sent her to NC to live with my brother, his current girlfriend and their newborn. 

The ironic part is, both of my brothers said growing up that they would never separate from their future children, since their father divorced our mom, moved away, and only sent them birthday cards. Sadness.

i wish this wasn't as familiar a topic as it is to me.

my husband had custody of his two small children from his first marriage when we got hooked up. she'd gotten a quickie divorce so she could move in with her boss. didn't want to be bothered with motherhood. that is, until i was in the picture.

in the five years we had custody, did backflips to walk that line between honest and never badmouthing the ex or interfering in the kids' relationship with her during the periods she was interested in it.i felt like it was the right thing to do but it bit us in the ass in some ways, 'cause bio-mom was on the other side working it the whole time.

she took them for an overnight visit and didn't bring them back one time and this landed us in the last round, where eventually, her efforts and the new husband's much deeper pockets won out and we lost custody amidst lots of lies and rehearsing the kids to claim i abused them (in exchange for a promised trip to Disneyland). it was pretty much horrific and devastating to all of us - especially my daughter who was 4 at the time and lost her siblings in one fell swoop.  the kids were moved out of state and the ex did everything within her power to sever our connections and sabotage any promise of us having a relationship with those kids, past, present or future. we found out later they were told they were unloved and unwanted by us and she'd hid the fact we'd tried to remain in contact.

The kids are all grown up now, and pretty well screwed up from what I can tell. Relationship troubles, history of substance abuse and personality disorders, at least in the aftermath I know about. We've attempted relationships at various points with varying (and painful) results.  I question whether or not we'll ever be able to have a healthy connection to them.

goddess, I am so sorry.  I'm so sad it's had such a direct impact on the kids' ability to be happy/functional as adults.

Thank you, thank you, opal and kachina.  My son is just tiny but it has actually made me glad lately when my son gets on the phone with his dad, and talks excitedly to him about everything that's going on, and is open about what we do together, because then I know he feels comfortable and isn't feeling responsible for "shielding" me from his relationship with his dad.  Because he knows I'm 100% for it.  

It stings a little when he refuses to talk to me when I call his dad's house, but I can get over that part.  I just feel sad because I think he's protecting his dad - he knows how upset his dad gets over everything, and I'm sad to think a little 3-yr-old feels guilty for caring about both parents.

Goddess, that is horrible. Really unfair, to say the least. :-(

I know a divorcing couple that are sabotaging each other on Facebook right now. And their kids are on Facebook and can read all of this. I couldn't friend them because the whole issue made me ill.

I know divorces can be really ugly, and I have seen some pretty bad ones, but people staying together who hate each other's gutts, well that is awful as well.  My husband's brother FINALLY got a divorce - he had one of the most fucked-up marriages I have ever been witness to in my life.  And they have a son, and they fucked him up pretty good with all of the venom they constantly spewed back and forth to each other.  I doubt this kid will ever have a normal adult relationship - he never saw one, that is for damn sure.

Dorothy, there's that, too, ugh.

I guess an important question would be.... why do men and women hate each other so much?  Like, it's the end of the world to just not be together anymore?

I have a fairly idealistic view of men having very good role models in my father, brother and uncles.. but my sister's ex is a horror story. They are going through a divorce having owned a home together and having a 7 year old son. The son is exposed to violence and so much crap that he can't sleep through the night. His brother and him watched "the unborn" and his brother insists he's been possessed. It sickened me to watch how adamant he was that the stories he was telling me were true. As his aunt I hope I helped by telling him he wasn't going to convince me - rather than trying to tell him he was wrong or his brother or father were wrong - but rather to help him sort through what was real and what was stories and what was maybe true and what was energy. Try to keep some maybe in there. He's a taurus with saturn in gemini. I can relate to his love of stories. My mother used to tell me these things were true and it kind of messed me up. Wish she had helped me sort through what was true for ME. Moon in gemini and north node in sag.

His dad is a sag with saturn in pisces, pluto in virgo, venus and mars in capricorn and capricorn ruling his 12th. I believe he has an ideal of parenting based on being in control passed on from his father rather than understanding that his responsibility is to retreat and have faith. The world works for him when he channels everything into his art. He's a gifted painter. Right now he's an abusive control freak. He played nice with my sister to get a gun licence - for rifles at his dad's home - and is back to being the demon from hell when dealing with her. Until now she's been committed to sharing custody but he's not chilling out so is considering going for sole. It's sad. Wish he could see that all he has to do is shut-the-fuck-up and keep his 7 year old from being over-exposed to violence. Is it so hard?? And it all started because he thought the solution to their financial tightness was to pressure her into giving up her career ambitions and take a job at walmart. She now has a job with the government where they are trying to figure out a promotion for her, a boyfriend.. and enough money for sole support.

Really sad to hear the stories on here. ((Jessica, Goddess)). 

i hate watching adults use children as pawns in their ego games. though, iguess, divorced or together, those games would go on regardless.  but it's easier to manipulate a child when you have them all to yourself, i guess....

the degree of pain here is palpable... and teling... but i'm not sure what it's telling.  except that it's really really easy for parents to project things onto children.  and they tend to stick in terribly damaging ways....

Parents who use their kids like that should burn in hell, if there is such a place, or meet horrible terrible misfortune on earth. I think actually the "here on earth" is preferable, because at least we get the satisfaction of justice being served and an example for others to learn from.

I used to think I was a nice pacific Scorpio who could wait for divine/cosmic justice to be meted out. I think I'm getting old and can't wait. I want it HERE and NOW.

(where's the little devil emoticon when you need it??) 

I'm a stepmother.  I've read so many horror stories on stepmothering boards over the years.  It's unthinkable what people will do to get revenge on their ex for leaving them or calling bullshit on the games they're playing.

It's nothing but a big control issue.  Divorce spins your life totally out of control.  Since control freaks are the most affected by it, they continue playing games to get back the control they feel they lost.  They don't think it's wrong to drag kids into it, because that's one of the ultimate forms of control.  If you have a kid with someone, you're never going to fully amputate them from your life.  Control freaks know this and play it up to the max.

Makes me kind of glad that the mother in our situation, who is an Aries, was so immersed in her own messed-up life that she never bothered us.  The flip, and bad, side was that she was never there for her kid (my stepson, who I have a great relationship with, and who's now 18) when he was growing up.

Maybe, though, with Saturn going through Libra, these people are going to be forced to take responsibility for their actions and will have to work hard to fix the damage they did.  I've seen stories where the actions of the alienating parent completely backfired when the kids saw through what they were doing.

Awesome LisLioness (and goddess and everyone), stepmothers have a special place in my heart because I have a great one. I always kind of pictured myself as one, but no takers yet.

I wanted to say that I have more than heard stories - I think 100% of the time, the actions of the alienating parent backfire.  Kids always grow up and always resent the parent(s) that did wrong.  I'm not totally alienated from my mother but I do resent her attempt to block my relationship with my dad, and friends my age feel the same, everything on a scale up to no longer having a relationship with the alienating parent.  I think that's related to Elsa talking about paying for your actions (about a Saturn cycle later).  However, there is no payback for the child, they lose out on those relationships with a parent no matter what. :(