So since the diversion on the Sun-Moon in synastry thread, I've been trying to think of a way to talk about this. I think it's a good thing to talk about with Saturn (integrity) entering Libra (relationships). 

When I was 19 and had never been in relationship, let alone an intmate relationship I slept with someone's boyfriend. He "didn't love her" and "she was crazy" and "we had a connection" and all the stereotypical things that you learn with life experience is a big load of horse shit. I mention life experience, because that is Saturn. Anyone over the age of 30 and past their first Saturn Return knows multiple people who have been cheated on, even if they themselves have not been. I think this is a given, personally. 

I am NOT excusing myself. I see from my current perspective that I chose to accept the excuses because I wanted to have things turn out my way. I wanted that man. Period. Sure I was young, but stealing when you are 11 years old is still stealing...and screwing someone else's lover when you are 19 is still screwing someone else's lover. 

Now...of the people I know who have been cheated on this sort of thing comes up. The Reasons.

"I was drunk. She was hot. My partner doesn't give head. I like Mondays. She's crazy. He said they were breaking up. It's because of the kids. Work is overwhelming. He fed me tequila shots. No one else understands."

On and on we go. 

I know all of people in all kinds of sexual relationships. Yes, I even know professional sex workers.  Boy do they have a tale or two about fidelity.

I don't even know where I'm going with this conversation. But something is brewing with Saturn in Libra. I think Pluto in Capricorn is going to be a tumultuous ride, and having strong allies is going to help you. I think one of the ways you gain strong allies is by BEING A STRONG ALLY. This requires Intergity--Saturn and the Sign in rules--Capricorn.

What is integrity to you? 

KASH! When I was 19 and newly deflowered, my boyfriend cheated on me, stomped all over my tender young heart. He did it with a TAURUS who was supposed to be my FRIEND, no less!

You ARE that girl! HA. Was the guy a Sadge, cheating on a Libra? I just have to ask. :)

Oh, man. It wasn't me, I swear it. He was 10 years older and an Aquarian. I later found out that his "crazy girlfriend" was actually schizophrenic and he was abusive. This is what I mean by horse shit. Cheaters/cheatees always seem to have the same set of excuses and they are simply that, horseshit.

The situation ended up very interestingly. I met the gal in a bar and told her everything. She wanted to know every gory detail and I told it. It gave her the impetus to leave him and to this day I have never forgotten how solicitous she was to me and I never felt I deserved it. I still see her from time to time (and this was almost 14 years ago) and I feel like shit every time.

Integrity to me=do not screw someone else's partner. Even if no one shoots you afterwards and there are no "consequences" you are still the person who fucked someone else's man. 

Integrity means a lot. I've lived with cheating since childhood - father was a womanizer and I see my Mom hurt deeply everyday. This carried on as I grew older as I myself have been cheated on twice. Because cheating men is so ingrained in my life in childhood, I work my hardest to shake it off. In the meantime, I live solely on honesty. I am sometimes too painfully honest, it gets me in trouble... But it's better to be painfully honest that to lie.

There was one occasion where I almost cheated, however, but I wanted to be honest. I did not want to hurt my first boyfriend the way my dad hurt the family. And what's worse is that it hurt me very deeply that I even had feelings like such. So I broke the relationship up and even stopped talking to the guy that I could have cheated with. I felt a sense of accomplishment because I always thought I was "weak" and if a "weak" person could do it - so can most people.

Kashmiri: I find that in one's younger years, one tends not to think too far ahead about the consequences. Who we're hurting and whether or not this relationship would even last - or whether or not it would be good for us. All we know is that we want that person - NOW. I find that the older we get and the more experience we have, we learn to be mindful of things outside ourselves - yet at the same time we learn not to be too self-sacrificing either (something I'm STILL working on).  

What I want to know is: why do people talk to their kids/friends/whoever about

-building a career

-saving for retirement

-paying your bills

and NOT consequences of poor relationship choices?

You don't pay rent, you get evicted. You don't pay for parking, you get towed. You screw someone's else's partner...what? You have fun and live happily ever after because you made a little mistake and no one's perfect? :::shakes head:::

I don't live in guilt over this. I really don't. I did for years and years and had to make peace with it, because it wasn't something never to be undone. But the consequences emotionally have informed me since then...If I so much DREAM about another man who isn't mine I am disturbed. 

Wait a minute - I'M A SCHIZOPHRENIC!

(just kidding). I can't even imagine the places of horror you took that poor woman's schizoid mind to. Imagine what the voices told her after THAT little chat! ::shudder::

I was pondering this last night. I was wondering if men show more loyalty to their FRIENDS than women do.

So, if you're a guy, and you think your buddy's wife is hot... you just don't go there because it's your buddy's wife and you respect and remain loyal to that guy. Or do you?

But if you're a chick, and you're attracted to your friend's husband... does the same code of ethics apply? Or no?

So, if men cheat... do they do it with females OUTSIDE their circle of friends? 

Are women more likely to cheat WITHIN the circle of friends?

Does the most cheating happen between coworkers, maybe?

I really don't know - I'm just pondering it all.

Bananas:

I was pondering this last night. I was wondering if men show more loyalty to their FRIENDS than women do.

So, if you're a guy, and you think your buddy's wife is hot... you just don't go there because it's your buddy's wife and you respect and remain loyal to that guy. Or do you?

Unfortunately, I disagree with this. Three years ago, our group of friends had a huge blown up drama. My boyfriend and I, then just friends were caught in the middle between a guy I went to high school with and my boyfriend's roommate who pretty much fought over a girl (who is one of my boyfriend's best friends). Sadly, she was the type of person who tends to cling to a man when he is available. After the roommate and she broke up, my high school friend came swooping down and taking advantage of her vulnerability. It was serious drama that messed us all up. I did the impossible and tried to stay neutral for three months - but after my high school friend and she broke up, I broke my friendship with the high school friend because I could no longer conceal my principle. It was too hard. I'm still friends with the girl (very good friends, in fact) and the whole event still plagues her... and my boyfriend's roommate.

It sucks. 

Talking to my new dude (Scorpio Moon) last night: his best friend slept with his girlfriend, years ago. Guess what?They are still friends. Yeah. They had a fight in a bar over it, and some strange men THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW broke it up, and one stranger-dude yelled

"You guys are brothers! You gonna let some bitch come between you?"

My (Scorpio Moon) ex told me that his Scorpio Sun brother slept with "many"of his girlfriends. 

What can I say Bananas, other than I hold your view now, I held your view at 28, I held your view at 25, I held your view at 20...at 19 I was a fucking maniac who needed to be held accountable. I'm thankful to be held accountable. My Capricorn Moon WANTS to be accountable. 

Wait, what's my view? :)

I feel like I never actually stated anything on this thread!

In fact I'm having trouble communicating. I'm going to go walk my dogs and maybe clean some more.

You know, though, from the other thread, that I don't think cheating is ever exusable behavior.

More later!

I forgot that this Elsa blog post prompted me this morning:

http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/03/16/art-astrology-and-the-uranus-transit-through-pisces-sleep-with-her-husband-at-your-own-risk/ 

hey all,

Nice post Kashmiri. While I have managed to keep my nose clean up until now (save one cheatee situation wherein I didnt know I was a cheatee), I come across more instances of people cheating for all kinds of reasons and yes--I find them to be horseshit too.Whats kept me in line on this issue over the years is that all I have to do is imagine how I would feel if somebody I was committed to cheated on me, and any potential fantasy gets thrown out the window. I hate to be a simpleton here but how can one not figure KARMA into this equation? That shit comes back to you, man--even if only in the form of guilt. For me, this keeps integrity pretty much in check.

 Its possible Ive been cheated on and never knew. Guess I cant lose too much sleep over that, but this did raise a related question to me:

 How subtle can cheating be to you? Where does one draw the line? People may not always end up in bed together but how many shades of gray exist on the dishonesty/fidelity spectrum?

 Case in point: my ex had issues introducing me to his friends cause he has social anxiety issues (yeah whatever). However, I later on found out that he was advertising himself as "single" on the two online social networking sites he was part of. He said that he didnt want "people to know that much about his love and personal life." I bit my tongue, tried to see this through the "eyes" of his social issues, but I could just not accept it. And in the end, he never did change his status anyways. To me, he was virtually cheating by playing the single card, and by not acknowledging our (at the time) 2.5 year relationship. Who knows wtf he did online, even if he never actually touched another woman. Bothers me to think I even temporarily accepted his horseshit excuses.

Horseshit, horseshit, horseshit.....I know Ive had enough of it--Bring on the Saturnian inegrity!

peace out,

Lola

 I meant 'Something that couldn't be undone." Hope that clarifies. Some errors you make re-direct the course you're on, you can learn from it, make peace with it, be forgiven, forgive yourself, whatever.  But a mistake is still a mistake.

Lola that whole situation smells bad. 

If something bothers you and you tell your partner that it bothers you, and your partner says "it is nothing" it is not nothing.

At the very least it is your partner's laziness in learning more about why you are bothered, and that isn't nothing, is it?

my new dude said to me last night "i don't trust X around you." I said "That's too bad. If it makes you feel better, X has never been anything but a gentleman."

If I had started with "X? That's NOTHING" you better believe it...that's where bad feelings start. 

I think these jealousy/infidelity scenarios are character/morality temperature-taking opportunities.  it's an opportunity to assess your purported morality in direct relation to your actual integrity.  for some of us it's an chance to prove to ourselves that we've actually learned something from prior experience.

satori that is super astute. and definitely true for me. i want to learn, it's the only motivation to keep moving forward sometimes.

my new dude said to me last night "i don't trust X around you."

Haaaa. Of course he did. Taurus, welcome to Scorpio moon. :)

I think these jealousy/infidelity scenarios are character/morality temperature-taking opportunities. 

True, and all we can do is hope that in the process, we don't get something shoved up our ass.

(sorry, bad temperature taking joke)

one of my clients (i work as a courier) said to me on friday: 'i'm just double checking blah and blah." I reassured everything was fine, and she said "Im sorry, I have trust issues." ...made me feel sort of weirdly sad. I said "So do I, just about different stuff."

what was it that made you feel weirdly sad, exactly?  I'm curious, but you don't have to tell me if you don't feel like it.  :)

Everyone knows they're hurting someone else when they cheat, even when they're doing it, but so many people do it anyway.  I think it comes down to how strong the urge, desire, wanting what we want when we want it, need is...which is all emotional and primal....versus the mental and rational integrity angle.  Its the needy part of ourselves that takes over when we cheat.   It shows how weak we are really, and there's the wake up call.  If i'm weak enough to cheat on someone I care about, then there are issues I really need to deal with.  

I have cheated on a couple of boyfriends back in my 20s, but never in my 30s or 40s.  However, I do have a  booty call friend that has been in my life for 30 years, and whenever we're both single, we go for it.  He's a serial cheater though, and when he came over 6 months ago he informed me that he was engaged!   Arrgghh.  What did I do?  I still went for it!  Good grief.  I consider that to be cheating on his part of course, but also on mine.  I've never met her, and never will, but I figure if I'm contrributing to his cheating on her, then there is no integrity in that for me.  It's  a choice.  Yes, I've been single for a long time, and yes, I would love a booty call with him, but I just can't do it.  He keeps calling, but I've told him that its a no go, and I've managed to stick to my guns.  Its easier now that I made the decision, and I won't go back on it.     Saturn is exalted in Libra.  I wonder if this is a time when people who serial cheat get caught out, or get held to their actions.  Instant karma baby! 

 It scares me how many men I know that cheat on their wives or girfriends.  Really, its astounding!  One guy does it because he says he refuses to lose his house and car to her in a split, and so he won't leave her.  He just lies to her and cheats on her.  Good grief.  He's also a classic narcissist though.  Well, anybody who cheats is acting narcissistic to some degree....making it all about them and their desires in the moment.   

satori, it's strange. these little moments that last a millisecond. in a blink i see an internal abyss i think we all have. like watching a helium balloon float off into the atmosphere. you know where it's going--somewhere you can never follow even if you wanted to.

I think occasionally cheating serves a purpose, like the involved parties are looking for a solid deal breaker.  They have tried to leave their partner but only come up with vague reasons about feeling unfulfilled which the other person says they can "work on."  The partner refuses to grant the dissatisfied with emancipation from the relationship contract.  So they play the cheat card.  Its not morally right, but its a swift response to the feeling of being held hostage.

Notatirem, that's pretty accurate for some relationships.

I've never cheated, but during the deepest depths of our marital problems, I did feel that I could see myself doing that. I don't know if I ever actually would have, the opportunity never presented itself (and I didn't go out looking). Sometimes, a person has been missing love and caring behaviors for so long that you just crave some love. And you're not in a place, in your mind, where you feel you can leave. Of course, that's not true, I could have left, I'm not excusing a potential affair, just saying that sometimes people are in a kind of beaten down place.

I was cheated on once, by my high school boyfriend.  But, meh, it's high school, whatever.

thanks kashmiri, I think I understand now.  :)

"satori, it's strange. these little moments that last a millisecond. in a blink i see an internal abyss i think we all have. like watching a helium balloon float off into the atmosphere. you know where it's going--somewhere you can never follow even if you wanted to."

 Self-respect?

This was what I had to say about cheating on the other thread. I don't have the energy to recreate it for this one.

-------------------------------------

All right, I may as well ask this question here.

Have you ever thought about turning OFF the feelings for a married man?

You just turn them off!

Oh! We used to flirt when you were young, I thought you were cute, maybe we made out once or twice?

But you're married now. Someone other woman's property. A woman like me. She irons your shirts and worries about you when you drive in the snow.

Married? Well, okay, arrange a few things in my head, shift the focus and now you're my brother. 

Guy at work, kinda cute, hmm... would I??

Ohh! Married!

::needle scratches off record::

You've become a family member to me. I will never look at you with any measure of lust again. 

Did you ever do that, or try to? I'm not judging, I honestly don't understand how these scenarios develop.

Have you ever had moments where you are so full of questions you would tear yourself apart just trying to make sense of it?  Then you hang on to your faith to keep going while you try to build the answer to your questions.  After you figure it all out, you wonder why you even made a big fuss about it. That's the time you realize that all you need to have is faith.

I mean faith in one's self abilities to make the best move even in the dark.

persian cat your comment re: self-respect confounds me.

I'm real judgemental when it comes to this I must admit.

When I was 18, I had a HUGE crush on my boss who was married.  I don't remember ever thinking "oh, but he has a wife, he's married".  I just thought "man, I'd love to be on that".  At 18 I had no sense of the damage it would do to another, to their kids, etc.  (Nothing ever happened, I was so mesmerized by him I was extremely shy, even so, I don't think he would've ever taken up one of my advances).

So I think age has a lot to do with it, maturity.

I think it was when I was 20 when I thought to myself "man, that wasn't cool."

As an adult I would NEVER be the other woman.  For one, I have too much integrity, secondly, I could never consciously consent to hurting another human being, let alone another WOMAN!  I wouldn't be able to sleep at night or look at myself in the mirror.  I think anyone who participates in extramarital affairs (knowingly) is extremely selfish and immature.  I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but that's just how I feel about it. 

I feel bad for people who unintentionally find themselves in that situation because the cheater didn't disclose the fact that they were married, when the other person has already invested deep feelings for them.  But when someone knowingly enters an extramarital relationship....well, I have NO sympathy whatsoever when the shit hits the fan.

yeah, persian cat, I was also wondering what the eff you were talking about there. (the self respect comment ???)

Kash, I like to believe that you were talking about a lost/unrequited trust/love and the sad feelings that goes with it, however it triggers something else in me.  I looked inward and checked where my level of self-respect in terms of the amount of time I put in worrying about other people's tendency at misdemeanor whether they be my lover, friend or family.  To me those "little moments I take to look into my own abyss" would mean the unfathomable depth of self-respect and self-preservation I have from getting hurt or feeling bad about the acts and intentions of other people.  You get cheated, even countless times, or even cheat once or twice yourself, but if you always come back to your center, there would be no need to "follow the helium balloon in a millisecond"  because you would have made a u-turn before that crucial millisecond is about to start.  There would be no need to dwell on what-ifs and what-might-have-beens because you will be back to where it all started - from the center.  So that "millisecond" point is that instant where you say "I am what I am and you are what you are and this how it's always gonna be."

I have come to accept the anatomy of my trusting ways.  I could walk into a trap and get eaten alive in broad daylight but this is what makes me what I am.

I'm afraid you are off the mark and I am, in fact, NOT talking about what you'd like me to be talking about. 

But I'm glad you can take my metaphor and run with it and work it whatever way you desire. And I'm also glad it got you thinking about yourself and your own way of being in the world. That's a cool thing that language can do.

Oh good.   I am in fact, sitting in the middle of my own scales right now.

Nice thread Kash.

I was thinking about this remark Kash made in the first post:

I think one of the ways you gain strong allies is by BEING A STRONG ALLY. This requires Intergity--Saturn and the Sign in rules--Capricorn.

In a way, by bedding another woman's man, you're sending a silent message to other women everywhere that you have zero respect for what it is to BE a woman, a wife and a mother. You're saying you have no sisterly loyalty to other women; you're saying "I can't be trusted" as a girlfriend, sister, friend, confidante, or anything at all."

By bedding another woman's man, you're saying you have no respect for fidelity, for commitment, or, if you're messing around with someone's dad - for family.

By bedding another woman's man, you're saying that instead of upholding a standard of conduct, and instead of silent understanding and respect between you and your fellow females, you would rather play a slithery, "every woman for herself" kind of game.

By bedding another woman's man, you're saying that come the day when you're a frazzled mom to 3 kids who never gets enough sleep and wonders if her husband finds her even remotely attractive anymore... that if a younger and more vibrant woman comes along, she has every right to snag your man if she can. Because after all, every woman for herself, right?

Hell yeah, karma is a factor.

The truth is, though, that karma doesn't always come and find you. Lots of people go through an infidelity phase, but then straighten out and move on to live happy lives, faithful to their husbands and it never "comes back to them" in any way.

Go Bananas!  LOVED that!

Ahh, I thought I fucked it all up and then tried to edit it royally. I'm really having trouble communicating today. Thanks for the encouragement, Shell. :)

Bananas, here's a standing ovation! You shed light on what I painstakingly written up there.

Bananas, yes...for people trying to make a go of having a family, a partner, a spouse, intimacy, trust, honesty...

I never mentioned that my first boyfriend cheated on me. He slept with one of our roommates who I was friends with. Our other roommates knew and started talking...I talked to each and every person individually "Do not speak ill of my friend and my partner."

My reaction surprised me.

Persian_cat, I'm still trying to figure out what you meant. :) I *think* that YOUR floating balloon is the hypothetical "fantasy" of running off with another, which you chose, in the end, to ignore? Because you remembered "who you were?" (this is an analogy - not a real story).

Right? 

Are you saying, be happy with what you are and what you have?

This is what I don't like about having lots of planets especially my mercury in cancer in the 12th! 

I need feelings to intuit into what I meant.

Toni, help! 

By all means, Bananas you are right.  That's exactly what I meant.  The "U-turn".