In writing 'abyss' I was referring to something infinite that dwells within a human body. Persian Cat I'm wondering if you were riffing on this in a way akin to a gateway that leads towards possibility--a "misdemeanor."

So while the thread is about fidelity within relationships, my brief balloon interlude was riffing off of the comments further up the thread about trust...a stranger on the phone talking about her trust issues...me saying I have my own...I wasn't talking about romantic trust. Sorry to be banal but I have administrative and authoritarian trust. Booooring

I don't have trust issues with my intimate partners, despite the fact I have been the 'other woman' and I have been cheated on. I don't have intimate relationships with people I don't trust. This is something I learned from these experiences.

Iathina please don't apologize for your language skills...Saturn in Virgo is over:)

hahahaha...Thanx kashmiri 

persian cat, I think I see what you mean... You do have a very 12th house communications style.  I often get the feeling your posts are coming through a Ouija board.  At first it is other worldly and confusing, but then it all comes together and Nancy solves the mystery.

I have never had cheating as an example in my life. My father has jupiter in capricorn and was always faithful. A social guy and a flirt yes.. but he'd mention my mother's name in the first sentence to give a signal. He wanted to get married when he met my mother as he wanted to have kids. So cheating he would have had a lot to lose. And my mother always *ahem* put out.. she's told me. she has mars/venus and mercury in scorpio. :P

My brother is also a loyal man. As are my 9 uncles :P So far as I know. Long and mostly happy marriages.. only one divorce and one gay out of 10 kids. So I don't think i've ever dated a cheater.. I don't have goggles for that type of guy. Also if i get a wiff of them being anything other than upstanding i'm gone.. because I wanted someone into me. Ok so I didn't date much due to my idealistic nature.. but when i did i dated mostly good men.  And the only man who sorta cheated was due to my own hanging on and letting him lie to me while technically we weren't together. 

For me sex is important but not that important. I mean if i'm getting it them i'm good.. why would one want to complicate their lives by introducing another person into their beds? The idea exhausts me. Lol I'm an introvert.. one is more than enough to have to deal with. :P 

Problem I have is with so much integrity around cheating and sex.. I can't seem to lighten up enough to get "oops" pregnant. :P 

I often get the feeling your posts are coming through a Ouija board.

Thank God, you get this right about me.  Some times, I would just like to sit and "feel" and try to communicate that way.  A lot easier.  Thus having an emotionally receptive audience is crucial.

(Read the full Nancy Drew series, btw.)

persian_cat, I too have Mercury in Cancer in the 12th. Retrograde, no less. I wish we could speak telepathically. Sigh.

Iathina, oh, no! I'm CERTAINLY NOT saying that the man who cheats gets a pardon. Fuck that guy. You can take my entire shpiel and substitute the phrase "man who cheats on his wife" for "woman who sleeps with another woman's man." ALL of it is a violation.

I'm talking about fidelity in general. Respecting other people. Staying true to one's commitments. Having boundaries.

However, though, my original remarks were about women getting along with other women because that's just what I felt like talking about at the time. Women can either be strongly bonded, or bitter adversaries. I think that when we turn against each other all we really do is defeat the power of our gender on the whole. 

And the thing is... women are physically less powerful than men - this is why we SHOULD stick together, look out for each other. Because alone, we have no power against them.

Imagine this, you're a woman living in oppression, in Afghanistan where, let's just say they're still wearing their burkas and hiding behind painted windows, being kicked in the streets, holding no jobs, can't drive, being beaten for making eye contact with a man, etc..

This is a place where women are treated as SUBhuman. So, it is particularly important for women to "stick together" because there, they literally have NOTHING but each other. 

So imagine if one woman somehow lured away other women's husbands, in that scenario. Nothing all that terrible would happen to the husbands because their protection was needed by the wives, for survival. In other words: the wives are dependent and the men are in control.

The woman, however, would be shunned by her "sisters" - who, in this kind of climate, she desperately needs for support. And what would she have... nothing!

Does this make sense NOW?

So what happens when we sleep with someone else's lover?

Do you really want to know the truth about this?  Here it goes: 

WE LOSE OURSELVES.  And it's self-inflicted.  You squirm with the bad after taste.  You go to the shower and you know deep inside you can't wash it away.  After you wrestle with all the demons inside, the dust settles for a while and you both see and feel the deep, dark void that's creeping on your skin, engulfing your whole being with it.  After a day or two, or as soon as you fully realize what you have done, whichever comes first, you will become a walking headless chicken with a purple lipstick, boa feathers and faux pearls.  You feel funny, you look funny, and it progresses to feeling rotten and it would soon manifest externally and you will start smelling this decaying feeling you wake up to every morning after that.

Why? You ask.  No man or woman in his right frame of mind would consciously cross territorial boundaries and walk away happily whistling about it afterwards.

You want to go and painfully and in a humiliating manner self-destruct in less than 24 hours?  Go ahead and do it.

Bedding someone else when you're in a relationship or bedding someone you know is in a relationship, cheeses me off to no end. 

If you are in a relationship and you're not getting your needs met in your current partnership either end it and find someone you're  more compatible with or try to work it out.

I think sleeping with someone you know is married or in a serious relationship is beyond contempt. They are out of bounds, no touchy no feely.

While my venus is is aquarius, I have enough Leo in my chart to demand loyalty and give it in return.

i broke up a marriage at nineteen by flirting with the husband, and deluding myself as to what i was doing.  until it got to the point it was obvious what he was after and i ran.  and told her.

she was my friend.  i still feel bad.  she's probably happier now, though.

and something really stuck with me... when she accused him of going after a girl with the emotional development of a fourteen year old.  she was right (he was almost thirty.)

i was good at deluding myself.  though after that i became a lot more attuned to the signs.  but still... one of my best friendships came out of a bunch of heated conversations with a woman about what, exactly, i was doing with her boyfriend when we hung out together (heated, fascinating conversations, not platonic undercurrents, but hands off... lots of energy, i was stupid.... )  and what his intentions were.  i really expected him to be more respectful to her than he turned out to be. again, i ran. 

but kept the friendship with her... she was real, and honest, and direct, and had integrity.  she's a tough woman, but i never had to wonder whether she was being nice just to backstab me later.

i've found with neptune venus i a bad tendency to fixate on what i can't have.  or think i can't.  which gets stupid when they try to take me up on it, and i suddenly realize i never really wanted the reality.  and my saturn venus becomes appalled.  i'm really good at walking away on principle.  which becomes a problem because sometimes, maybe, i should be more forgiving.  i'm not really sure about that.

Caught on camera: naked love rival flees furious husband

Sun Meng has been given the cold shoulder by his community after the extraordinary picture of him cowering naked outside the flat were posted on the internet. ..

"What happens when you sleep with someone else's lover?"

The shit literally hits the fan. 

I "fell in love" with a man 10 yrs my senior when I was 19. He and his wife were separated when we had our short lived affair, but I still felt like the other woman, and was treated like it when he abruptly moved across the country with her after our relationship ended. Plus, the woman gave me a verbal whooping over the phone. 

I learned when I was 24 that the frontal lobe of the human brain is not fully developed until about age 25. (The frontal lobe is where our "executive" processes are organized--ie decision making, goal planning, etc.) That was my scientific approach to an excuse for such behavior at that age. 

Bananas, what you said was quite powerful. I'd dare say it's a standing ovation! :)

Best part of the article from Elsa's picture.  

"People are even laughing at how I look naked - but I have to point out it was a very cold day," he added.

 I love what persian cat said"

 "Why? You ask.  No man or woman in his right frame of mind would consciously cross territorial boundaries and walk away happily whistling about it afterwards."

 I think thats true of most people, at least of women for sure.  I know two men who have no problem cheating at all.  They've always done it.  I asked one of them how it made him feel, and he said that he knows that its wrong morally,  but he compartmentalizes.  So, he said that being with one woman has no bearing on his relationship.  Completely wrong of course, because it does, but the point is that he believes that it doesn't.  He rationalizes it all away, and he says he feels no guilt.  (he's a Gemini).  No water in his chart, therefore making it difficult for him to have empathy for how someone else would feel.   Narcissists are known for having no empathy.   I've known this guy for years and years and I know he does it for attention, the rush, the excitement and for trying to feel better about himself.  Which is funny, cause its doing the exact opposite.  Its eroding his self esteem instead of supporting it. 

The other guy has lived with his girlfriend for 5 years and she expects they will get married.  He continues to cheat on her, and he has absolutely no problem with it.  I've asked him many times why he does it and how does he feel, and he just says that he thinks his girlfiriend is a very sweet loving person and he would hate to hurt her, yet he does it continually.   This dude is also a narcissist, and i know he does it for the attention, and the control  and power rush he gets for getting a girl to fall for him.  He is very very charming and can easily seduce women.   He also has no water, except for Saturn in Scorpio on the Dsc.   Now, does he walk away whistling a happy tune?  I'd have to say he kinda does.....sadly.  He just does not care at all how women feel, and if he gets what he wants, he is happy.  Completely self involved.  Narcissists, the real ones, feel better about themselves when they put others down, or when others feel jealous of them, so cheating on a partner makes them feel better about themselves in some weird way.  Scary.  Ok, i should've posted this under the narcissist thread....but they have sex too, and cheating and lying is a big part of their life. 

notatirem, I think the situation you described in @21 is what sank my last relationship.  Sort-of.  Except my ex never mentioned he was unhappy at all until he'd met my replacement and never tried to work on anything anyway.  Soo....  *shrugs and laughs*  Whatever, maaan.

"what if your SO gets his / hers with a prostitute?  Would you add the non sisterly label to her too, or is she different and get a free card because of course she has no integrety?"
If my SO cheated with a sex worker, damn right s/he'd get a free card!  Not because s/he has no integrity, but because it's his or her job.  A sex worker cannot care about the marital status of his or her clientele, no matter what their own personal opinions are on the subject.  It doesn't factor into the equation.
But my SO would catch eighteen kinds of hell, believe you me!  Although, honestly, I'd probably be slightly less cheesed than if it was with a non-sex worker, because any emotional involvement would be one sided and the SO is obviously not worth my time either way.

I do not cheat.  I have been cheated on, however.
I kind-of have to qualify that statement, I realized.  My first serious BF, when I was in college, had a GF back home that I never knew about until he came to me one night saying that he had ended that relationship.  I was very WTFBBQ??!!! but stayed with him because, hey, first serious BF and all.  He ended up cheating on me as well, and I kicked his ass to the curb and never thought about him with any fondness again.
In retrospect, I should've broken up with him when he finally admitted to the other relationship (even though it was over by then).  I've never felt guilty about back-home gal, though, because I didn't know she existed.  I didn't feel like that reflected badly on my integrity.  Staying with him after he admitted to it, though, sticks in my craw.  Gah!

never actually was a party to a man breaking his vows to another woman.  that was a line i couldn't cross.

but there's a lot of small steps on the way there that can be so easy to delude yourself into thinking are perfectly innocent.  particularly if you're feeling starved for attention.

it's a slippery slope and unconscious motives can really hijack what you rationally convince yoursef you're doing...

or maybe it's just been me...

This made me think of a good song by Olivia Broadfield.  I hate the concept, but it's such a good song I can't help loving it.  "Lost in You"

"...I feel no sadness when you say she cries....."

Ouch!

OK.  I have my own short rant about this.  I've been the cheater, twice.  Both were emotional affairs.  After the second one, I'm never going to get mixed up in anything like this ever again.

Both were unconscious reactions to what I wasn't getting in my relationship.  The second one happened because it was two big egos (both Fire signs) being starved for attention.

If you're not getting your needs met, you need to find some other way to do it besides an affair.  It hurts too many people and almost ripped families apart in both instances.  All for what?  I had to do some intense self-examination, and I swore I will never do it again.  It just isn't worth the pain it causes.

If the frontal lobe is not fully developed until age 25, then none of us should settle down or marry until age 30.

Everybody should be a free agent until age 30. Then things get serious. 

Darn, mimi.  I got married at 29.  That should explain a lot of things then.

compartmentalizing Gemini, and I keep talking about Gemini's lack of moral fiber.  I keep obsessing about my own lack of moral fiber and ability to commit acts like this without guilt.  I cheated once in the sense that I had an "emotional affair" with my friend.  We had a lot of feeling for each other and were very close, a Sun//Moon conjunction, and he had a girlfriend. He asked me if he should call it quits with her like it were a piece of advice I could give and I didn't understand that it meant he could break up for me.  I wasn't and am not very literate when it comes to men's social cues.  My friends were all on my team, no one really stopped me or disapproved of me saying "all's fair in love and war," and a romantic experience like that was very precious, I disapproved of her behind her back "they weren't right for each other" and enjoyed her company when I was with her.  It would be a waste of my time, I don't want to regret it. 

kashmiri, what kind of "abyss" are you talking about?  If it's the abyss of one's own moral mettle, I need to look away from there sometimes. 

I never cheated but I have been cheated once by a former gf. But I have discovered since I have lots of eighth house and neptune, and therefore very strong intuition.

I have forgiven her at that time, she was a Cancer and very needy, and i truly understood it, although we broke off months later.

Now, I allow my currrent partner to "cheat", if she wants to, provided that she informs me, due to my fear of sexually transmitted diseases (I'm a Virgo Moon and she's a Virgo).

Also as a man, I feel often a rush to strangers, I guess that's a part of our biological constitution. I am Sag, Aqu rising, However I never cheated. Instead, sometimes I masturbate to release those undesired wishes. Sorry for my confession. Other times, I meditate, or I make sports. Or, even best, I connect with my gf, to transcend those other physical needs! I think this is the best thing to do.

My heart tells me not to hurt anyone. However, I understand that suffering exists, and sooner or later one relationship ends, relationships are temporary and we don't own the other, and more, we should never betray our happiness in detriment of keeping a commitment. Some people cheat because they don't have their needs fullfilled, and they are afraid of anger building up, so they indulge in the affair which then haves obvious consequences. Other times, the situation turns out to be good, and a new relationship starts. Of course, this is a very difficult issue if you have to raise children. I think these issues are very difficult to have a straight answer.

I think if we would be more open to open relationships, then these complications would be much lower. That's why I concede the other to have affairs. I solve my potencial flirting urges by connecting in a deep way with my parnert, finding the time and depth to do it. I think our society would benefit much if we would open up our relationships. The extreme sexual imagery on TV and magazines is a symptom of the disfunction of our society. I would wish a basis of sharing openly intimate love and not just hedonism. Always with transparency, understanding and trust. But maybe we are not prepared. We are decades from it.

What do you think?