So, I have this problem of believing the things people say whether they be rooted in high emotion or not. For example, when someone is extremely angry and they say something harsh I firmly believe it has a core. There is a truth in there. And that is so hard for me to let go of no matter how much the person claims they didn't mean a bit of it after the high emotions are gone.

It kills me how people will say, "oh I was just upset and I didn't mean it." Do the words people fling at you have an affect like this? I work very hard at controlling what I say in situations like this but there are others who feel that what they say in the heat of emotion should have no bearing and be excused due the situation.

What do you think?

I agree with you, Josi.  I think it's got to come from somewhere - maybe not to the extent that they expressed it, but still.......

i'd call a person who says things they don't mean a liar, and / or depending on the harshness of the words, a sadist.

I might have a temper but I never lie or say things to hurt just because I'm angry.

Rachael, I never quite thought of it that way before. Interesting.

I have Merc in Scorpio which is inclined to obsess. But one thing said in anger to me outweighs the opposite being said a million times in calmness. I don't know why.

Josi, I get where you're coming from, and as I see that you also have Libra with Pisces, as do I, I'll suggest to you a route that works for me: use your empathic faculties to understand more fully how other people work differently than you. That doesn't mean you have to like it or find it acceptable, but it might help with the weighty obsessing over it part.

I think there is a degree of truth when someone really lets go and hurts someone deeply.  It's certainly something that needs to be looked at and dealt with, I would say! To have such an evil thing come from someone you are supposed to be able to trust is questionable to me.

I plead............Tourette syndrome

I have seen people intentionally say mean things they didn't mean in their heart as a way of inflicting pain in the moment.

Like they didn't actually feel it was true in their hearts, they were just trying to hit a sore spot in the other person.

I try to watch out for this when I'm angry. My mother has done this a lot to me and it is very hurtful so I don't want to act that way. That being said, sometimes I freak out and say things in the heat of the moment that I do feel as I say it, but then the emotion passes away.

It's important to be careful though, words carry much more energy than we realize.

i'd call a person who says things they don't mean a liar, and / or depending on the harshness of the words, a sadist.

Wow, that's really harsh.  I would never jump to that conclusion.  I've seen lots of decent people (who aren't liars or sadists) say things in the heat of emotion that they later realized was blown out of proportion and that they didn't actually mean.  Don't we all at some point?

My Mercury is in Pisces, so maybe it allows me more tolerence...

Hi CArRiE,

Is it harsh? Let me put it this way - I need people in my life who are able and willing to tell me the truth. If I can't trust them then it becomes a guessing game, and I've accepted the responsibility of deciding for myself when they're being honest with me and when they're not. I suck at that job (Neptune in Scorpio 4H - my foundation) and I don't want it.

ugh @ having to guess

I think that's my biggest problem with it. I don't know which extreme to believe and it eats away at trust.

Josi, A suggestion? I'd look at what's happening with my Neptune.

I'll own it - I have trust issues. I come by them honestly and that's no excuse and I need to work on them. That said I put a high value on both the truth (what is true right now) and the Truth (what is true always). I'll chase it down if I have to but with my Neptune placement? It can be hard to discern truth from lies, no doubt about it.

@Rachael - I guess what I saw as being 'harsh' was the judgement call.  In my experience, I've known others (as well as myself) that have gotten caught up in a highly emotional state and said things that they later realized was blown out of proportion and are sorry that they exploded verbally.  I just don't see that as a sign that they are liars or sadists.

I am inclined to agree with CArRiE. People get heated, we are humans after all!

Well, I can't speak for the person who does this as far as what it means etc or which is the truth (that which is said in high emotion or that which comes in calmness) but I do think my test in this particular situation is to see if I will follow the same pattern as always and that is to quickly exit the situation. I need to allow time to take it's course and follow up once all the facts are in. I think the truth will become very clear if given the time to show itself.

That's key..I think. We can't control what they say or how they say it but we can control what we do with it. In truth, we may never know if they are meant or not.

If someone knowingly says something they know not to be true that's lying. That is black and white - not a judgment.

The real question is how do you want to be around it. Do you want to call it something else so you're less uncomfortable with it? Ok.

I don't see it as the logical way that you're describing it, Rachael. You feel one thing, you say something about it, and then you feel another thing. The feeling is true in one moment, and then the feeling is not true in another moment.

Separately, that's not to say you should not be cautious about what you say. Because you may not always feel the way you do in one particular moment, it's worth considering that expressing a feeling verbally in one moment can have lasting effects, which may or may not be worth knowing in the long run.

Maybe I'm talking about something else.

You know what I think..I think it can be an instance of bait and switch. For example, you have an issue that you are dealing with but one person doesn't want to deal with that so they throw a smoke bomb to distract you from the original issue entirely. It can be a deliberate lie to evoke a reaction and your choice in it is whether to play the game or not. By allowing this type of thing to bother me, I'm giving exactly the reaction I'm expected to.

That said, I don't think anything can be solved in the heat of emotion. And multiple issues confuse the matter entirely. What I plan to do is from this point on is not react to it. Take note of what is being said so that it can be addressed at a later time when emotions have cooled, "Do you really feel this way?" and deal with at that time without losing sight of what the original issue was. Keep steering it back on track and refuse to deal with any smoke bomb that may be thrown.

I also think it can be very passive agressive defense mechanism and done to deliberately hurt someone in reaction to someone being confused and hurt in the first place. In that instance the claims may be true but should be given no credit until discussed rationally and validated.

Caroline, what you said about 'bait and switch' I wouldn't call that lying, and I'd treat it differently.

what a great topic.

i can only speak for myself. if i say something in the heat of the moment, and it's not nice, likely somewhere deep down i believe it to be true.

however, i have been known to say i didn't mean it.

i'd say that's in the past, though. i haven't had a heat of the moment moment for quite some time. i want, truly, not to have any more. those moments are UGLY. i'd rather speak the truth in a calm and fair way, should the need arise.

Oops Bait and Switch was Josi's term. Sorry Caroline. The rest of my comment still stands.

Josi "a deliberate lie to evoke a reaction' yeah, I'd call bullshit on that.

It sounds like what's going on is causing more confusion than clarity. I think the best thing to do aways when someone is 'acting out' is not to respond in kind. Your calmness might get the other person to calm down.

I have Aquarius prominently in chart with Uranus in 1H. I put a lot of emphasis on the logical, mental processes. It's just how I make sense of the world.

I like to know what people value, that at least helps me to understand somewhat where they are coming from. For example, I'm having health problems that are somewhat worrying to me. When my SO other challenged me and said maybe they're not all that bad, I got really angry. After a minute I cut to the chase and told him why. I told him I need reassurance that I can count on him should things get difficult. Telling me it's all in my head just made me wonder about what he was saying, like 'don't count on me', you see? I mean there's all kinds of reasons why I might have been angry, but that was the bottom line. For people that 'act out' rather than articulate the problem it could be that they just don't have the self-insight to really say. So I underscore the importance of telling the truth. Make it about what's *really* bothering them. Don't stand for bs is my motto. Don't pee on my back and tell me it's raining. Don't be nice to me cause you think it's what I want.

I'm a Taurus. I want value. I want substance. I want to know I'm standing on solid ground.

Have you guys ever been hungry or tired and said something bad?  

Does being hungry or tired bring out a person's subconscious thoughts to the surface?

Taurus NN here, with a splash of Mars/Scorpio opposition. I suspect that the reason this topic resonates with me is that I am inclined one way, working for the other way. I totally get what you are saying Rachael.

Hi FieryTaurus *waves* You got fire, you say? Nice. Optimism, hope, faith ... I could use some of that in my earth/air/water chart.

Though I am a Taurus Sun I could use even more earth to ground me!

Actually, I have only Moon in Aries in my personal planets, but the Aries Moon is enough to make me more fiery than a usual Taurus!

Thanks Rachael.

I know some people who get the nasty grumpies when they are hungry.

I try to feed them!

But Michele, do you think they mean what they say subconsciously? Or do you think it's just their hunger?

i do think if you say it out loud, it is travelling inside. i have no doubts about that. why else would it surface? and that's what we're talking about, correct? surfacing thoughts. even if you didn't realize you had them. there they always were, roiling about underground.

i suppose there might be people that just pull shit out of the air... but ... my instincts tell me no. i could be wrong on that one.

I agree that a lot of what people do or say when they're tired or hungry has grains of truth. It might not be the whole truth, but it came from somewhere inside.

But then again, there are times when we might just say things out of the blue. I guess we might never know 100%.

Michele, why would you say you didn't mean something when you did after you calmed down? To smooth things over? Or because it wasn't really a big deal? Do you know? I'm in complete admiration of you for recognizing this pattern by the way.

To smooth things over.

Likely I got out of control. Likely, I  exagerated the thought that was malingering inside. Likely I should have spoken about whatever it was much sooner. If I had been able to identify it or had the courage to bring up something touchy. Depends on the situation.   

I have these tendencies to take things that are small and make them big. Not just in the context we are talking about, but in most areas of my life, I'd say. SO. That doesn't help at all in some situations.

There is that lovely Jupiter/Ascendant in Leo business. I'm pretty sure that helps in the expansion of little hidden dark thoughts in moments of crisis. 

A gift and a curse. 

I completely understand what you are saying :) Thanks!

I've seen what Tam described, people who will say something they don't think is true, but it's a wound and they want to HURT the listener with it.  Other than that, I do believe there's a grain of truth in heated words (a grain, mind you) but it's often exaggerated and hyperbolized to make an impact.

I always try to turn it around to a solution before I call lost cause, though.  Okay, so X, Y, and Z is wrong with me, whether to the extent that you said or not.  So what do you want me to do about it?  And not just "change" -- give me concrete examples!

I've said things I didn't mean, though.  I'll admit it.
I grew up in a verbally abusive household and have tried very, very hard to break this extremely harsh character-assassination as first response cycle that I learned.  I recall one time I let fly with the most vile, hateful things I could think of saying, though -- and, no, I didn't mean them.  AT ALL.

I was just so pissed off and tired of being "nice" and getting nowhere that it's like I had no control over my mouth.  And the entire situation was like a bad replay of my childhood to begin with, so I slotted right into the role of abuser.  Yanno?  It was familiar and this is how I had learned to react.

I felt so bad.  SO BAD.  Even when I was spewing hate, I felt bad, but I couldn't stop until I removed myself.  And I apologized profusely afterward and explained what had happened in my brain and that I was wrong, just WRONG.  I hope it helped.  I think it did.  :/

I'm with Michele on this one: i'd rather speak the truth in a calm and fair way, should the need arise.

For me personally, I've come to discover that I've only gotten into heated discussions with others when I've allow a situation to fester, rather than nip it in the bud immediately with a mature, honest discussion.  And this is something I've just come to realize at 36 :).  

In my younger years, I was too fearful of offending the other party or seeming accusatory and potentially losing a friend, so those truthful discussions only took place after weeks, months or even years of festering; hence, the emotional "heat of the moment" and "saying things you don't mean" responses.  But I think those types of responses DO have some truth behind them - it's just that the emotions are typically directed at a particular situation, and don't necessarily reflect your core feelings toward the person involved.  In all truth, I think I used to get more angry at myself for not making my feelings known to the other party before it escalated, but wasn't enlightened enough back then to see this pattern.

It does take balls to be completely straightforward with others, which is why my friend base these days is very carefully chosen.  I want the truth as much as they do, especially in situations where I'm truly blinded.  

The flip side of this is that I cross people daily who have zero interest in the truth - they'd rather live in denial - and so my current lesson in practice is learning to walk away, no matter how much interest I have in them, realizing that I cannot change their choices. :)

What about a mentally ill person with Bipolar Disorder or Schizophrenia? What if a person is so ill they easily get irritated or maybe they're just very ill and don't mean what they say? OR maybe they do mean it?

well said, issora.

@ FT... that complicates things. as a bipolar 2 type person... i have learned to stay away from people when i am in the black. unfortunately, this also tends to alienate and piss off people who don't get it. it's like: person, i am PROTECTING YOU. but i've lost people who i considered friends because they believed i should be available. even as i say: i cannot be available right now.

yet, when i am in the black, i tend to be more self-destructive, rather than lashing. yet, being self-destructive hurts the people you care about.

i have it light, and cycle slowly, but i have it. and, consequently, i choose my intimates carefully and try to be as honest as i can with them.

the worst times of my life have been when i've tried the drug route on this. i react to drugs in the opposite. i have been an insane bitch on wheels on certain drugs. i don't try to control the situationwith drugs anymore. i take my black days when they come. try to protect the people i care about with shared knowledge. i try to regulate with routine, good eating and yoga.  

in that case, i would say, in those situations (with drugs), i was absolutely nasty. and nasty is probably a nice way of saying it. all the vitriol in my soul from all my lives came out and demanded justice in very unkind ways.

so, in answer to your question... we're on a different topic, i think. but did i mean what i said? probably. but since i don't consider myself a nasty person... i think there were darker, unseen forces at work. stuff from my past likely. and i do not write off the possibility of past lives.

schizophrenia i know nothing about except for book learning and visuals. i can say i wouldn't want the damn thing, that for sure!!

Well Michele, sorry about your bipolar. I suffer from an illness also. I have depression, but it isn't situational, it's organic or chemical. I'm sure bipolar is worse than depression though!

When I don't take my anti-depressants I retreat and isolate myself because I know I might do or say things I don't mean.

I disagree with you on one thing. I don't think you mean what you say when you have your black days. I think it's just your illness. Just to let you know, I believe in past lives too, but I don't think it's that, I really think it's just your bipolar. I really do believe that people can say things they don't mean.

But then again, I'm not an expert, so my words may not be credible.

Things have changed for me over the last few years. It's like I have a counter-weight. I am known for going away, thinking something through, and coming back with a new perspective. Sometimes the same perspective. But I have definitely learned that communication is the greatest tool.

Being nasty is not me. So I do think reaction to drugs contributed.

This is a fascinating subject. Meaning what you say under all circumstances... I think I strive for that. It's important to me. SO the very idea of saying something I don't mean operates against my innate need to be meaningful and honest at all cost. It helps to know I can be a fairly good manipulator. I don't like that side of me at all. It's one thing to be charming... Manipulation is another ballgame altogether. And I have a huge need for everyone to be on an even playing field. So knowing these things about myself helps keep me honest.

I've probably blown this conversation out of the water.... But I just realized about ten minutes ago that Pluto is opposing my Mercury in 12th. Grinding on it over and over again. So.

((Michele+FieryTaurus))  My heart goes out to you both!