Elsa

 

Honduras Defends Its Democracy

"Hugo Chávez's coalition-building efforts suffered a setback yesterday when the Honduran military sent its president packing for abusing the nation's constitution.

It seems that President Mel Zelaya miscalculated when he tried to emulate the success of his good friend Hugo in reshaping the Honduran Constitution to his liking...

 

 Read the rest - NYT

 

This story is of fantastic interest to me. Who is else is tracking and what do you think of this??

kashmiri

I'm interested in why there is so little news coverage...wondering about Chavez (did he have a 8 hour television conference about it, ha ha that was a bit cynical of me).

You know, "The first coup since the Cold War" and you really have to dig for information...

I voted yes, but honestly I could go either way, seeing I know ZERO about it (may as well flipped a coin). I'm totally interested in a "What the hell is happening outside my world??" way. I hope someone jumps in with their thoughts on this.

Jilly

It's been hard getting any news  - this guy has been blogging it.

 

http://figgylicious.blogspot.com/

 

qasseia

They have a democracy and I think they should use it (i.e. vote against the proposed elimination of the term limit and/or vote against Zelaya in the next election). 

 

I caught about 90 seconds of Jon Stewart the other night -- saying something like, whoa, enough 70s nostalgia for you? (with the death of Farrah and MJ) -- but wait, there's more!  A military coup in Central America!  Just like back in the day!

And BTW, this documentary is really worth watching for the "other side" of the Chavez story (i.e. the non-anti-Chavez side)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

or search "the revolution will not be televised" on google video.

qasseia

Kashmiri... I just re-read your comment and I thought I'd throw in my basic understanding of the situation:

1. The Honduran constitution limits presidents to one term.

2. Zelaya was properly elected and has been moving leftward since then -- including joining Chavez's Bolivarian group (he refers to his revolutionary politics as being in the tradition of Simon Bolivar).

3. Evidently, Zelaya would like to run for another term.

4. He initiated a referendum -- just a yes/no vote on whether the people would consider amending the constitution, in general terms.

5. He perceived the head of the military as a threat (evidently with reason) and perhaps illegally gave him the boot before this went down.

6. The military woke him up in the middle of the night and put him on a plane to Costa Rica in his PJs (maybe).

I prefer electoral politics to military coups (although Lord knows there have been times in the last eight years that I would have welcomed a coup here in the U.S. ).

qasseia

I looked at the "figgylicious" blog -- he's citing a source which denies demonstrations of support for Zelaya, but here is MSNBC with the headline "thousands hit street over Honduras coup"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31677410/ns/world_news-americas/

Okay, I'm done now.  My Mercury has really been freaking out

kashmiri

thanks for your thoughts, q! 

and thanks to both you and jilly for links to look at. 

Elsa

It is like the 70's and the soldier and I are completely reliving our lives as he was involved in the other war, this county was divided around which side they supported and I was told point blank, "If you want to marry him, you'd better decide which side you're on..."

I was deeply confused back then but not so in this era and it's relief and think this is a Saturn in Virgo thing.

In short, my mind had matured and I have learned to discern what I read... to judge it and have integrity of thought. 

It's not the easiest ticket, I'll tell you that.

 

Elsa

 

People against ousted Honduras President Manuel Zelaya gather outside of the presidential residence in support of the interim government in Tegucigalpa, Friday July 3, 2009. Honduras' interim leader said he was open to early elections if it resolves an impasse with the world community, as a top diplomat headed to the Central American nation to demand he restore Zelaya to power.

I say, let the people vote!  Put Zelaya on the ballot and if the people want him, let them vote for him.

Democracy!! 

 

 

denamaria

This is what is really happening, guys!!  No joke...it is scary as hell to me.  This was not a coup...I lived through 2 real coups in Honduras back in the 70's and 80's...this was not that!

Please read..

On Tuesday, all 192 members of the U.N. General Assembly voted to condemn Hondurans' removal of President Mel Zelaya from office. He was ousted this week after brazenly defying a Supreme Court ruling against a reelection referendum. Using the language of the effort's ringleader, Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, the U.N. called the constitutional act "a military coup."

The same day, the Organization of American States gave Honduras three days to reinstall Zelaya as president or its membership would be suspended.The World Bank "paused' lending until Zelaya is back. The Inter American Development Bank followed suit.Standard & Poor's warned of a credit downgrade. Tourists were told by embassies to leave. Three bordering nations cut off trade. Nations pulled ambassadors. Venezuela's despot, Hugo Chavez, cut off cheap oil. He now bucks for an OAS-led military invasion if his leftist pal Zelaya is not restored to power.The U.S. has its own bag of potential sanctions for Honduras, although as new facts emerge about Zelaya's involvement in the drug trade and his mental instability, doesn't look as though it intends to use them. Still, the Sword of Damocles over Honduras could mean a suspended free trade treaty, a cutoff of its $200 million in aid, and an end to its immigration agreement with the U.S.As the world follows Chavez's lead in trying to force Honduras to accept a lawless man as its leader, disasters for Honduras loom. 

The tiny country is impoverished. Its seven million people have a per capita income of just $1,635 a year. Its economy has been enfeebled by Zelaya himself. He has fixed prices and wages, and opened the door to drug traffickers, creating a burgeoning narcostate.It seems impossible that Honduras could withstand new draconian pressure and isolation over taking Zelaya back.Yet evidence shows that Hondurans consider the latter fate worse. If Zelaya is restored as president, he will resume his dictatorial ambitions while Hondurans lose their future freedoms.

Oh, the OAS will tell them "dialogue" will solve it.But Hondurans know better: If the rule of law won't dissuade Zelaya from being dictator, why would sweet talk work?Honduras' new, constitutionally appointed leader, Robert Micheletti, defied the global blowhards sitting in judgment of Honduras and said he wasn't leaving. To Chavez, he said: "You don't scare me." He also warned Zelaya that if he flew back to assume office, he'd be arrested. Honduras' Congress, and its Supreme Court are holding the line, too.This can only be happening because they are listening to the only people whose opinion matters: Hondurans, some 80% of whom approve of the Court action. "Everyone here is celebrating," a business leader told Latin Finance. 

Tuesday, thousands of these Hondurans peacefully rallied in the streets, in vivid contrast to the 200 pro-Zelaya thugs who trashed fast food joints and burned garbage a day earlier.Hondurans will have to prove it. Accepting a fate as an international pariah state bears a hefty price. But plucky Hondurans have made their choice, valuing freedom over world esteem. If against all odds they win, their choice will strike the biggest blow for democracy since the fall of the Berlin Wall. The chain reaction that ensues may topple the false democracies in Nicaragua, Bolivia, Ecuador, Venezuela and Cuba. Just as Hondurans aided freedom fighters to crush Sandinista communism in the '80s, they'll now turn back the tide of false democracies. If only America could be at their side for the victory this time.

Jilly

Thanks denamaria  I was hoping you would post in this thread.

qasseia

Denamaria, tell us how you really feel.

Here's a counterpoint, in the form of an article comparing the Honduran coup to the failed 2002 coup against Chavez.  The whole thing is worth a read, but here's just one point of similarity:

"<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Cartoons and soap operas conceal repression: both coups were followed by an immediate and total press blackout by the elite, oligarchic media outlets. News of the national crisis gave way unexpectedly, and in an undeniably Kafkaesque manner, to reruns of cartoons and soap operas. An effort to put a lid on the brewing resistance, to be sure, but it does little when the smell of burning tires is already in the air and established popular organizations are communicating by text message. For those not responding to the calming effect of mindless programming, hegemony gives way to domination and live ammunition will have to suffice."</font>

http://www.counterpunch.org/maher07032009.html

Elsa

It is amazing the different press accounts. Anyone can write anything.

qasseia

Yes, Elsa, I'm sure you and I (and everyone in this discussion) can agree on *that* much!   And actually, becoming aware of the way the same events can be represented completely differently by different sources is very important in itself.

denamaria

There are always two sides to a story, and when you have experienced something your perception is clouded by your past experiences and I am from this little country and have seen quite a bit and personally affected by events that have happened in the past down there.  It is so hard to look at something objectively when one has lived it....here is another tidbit....

<span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 16px"><h3 style="font-size: 130%; font-weight: bold; line-height: 1.3em; padding: 1px; margin: 0px" class="post-title entry-title">Excerpts from the Honduran Constitution</h3><div class="post-body entry-content" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.75em; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5em">Undeniable proof that the mainstream media, Obama and his socialist dictator buddies are <span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold">lying about the removal of Zelaya in Honduras.

Title II, Chapter 3: (citizens)

Article 42: The legal rights of any citizen is lost:

5) If the citizen incites, promotes, or supports the continuance or the re-election of the President of the Republic;

Title II, Chapter 4: (executive power)

Article 238: In order to become the President of the Republic or designated to the Presidency, one must:

3) Be in possession of a citizen's legal rights;

Article 239: A citizen who has previously held executive power can not be President or designated to the Presidency. Those that break this provision or propose reform of this provision, as well as those that help directly or indirectly, will immediately cease to hold and exercise the power of his/her post, and will be banned from holding any future public office for a period of ten years.

Article 244: If need be, the law ful duty of the President of the Republic, or of its substitute, will be presented to the President of the National Congress if in session, and if not to the President of the Supreme Court.

Article 272: The Armed Force of Honduras is a permanent National Institution, essentially professional, apolitical, obedient, and undeliberate. It is constituted to defend the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic, to maintain the peace, public order, protect the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage, and the changeability of the President of the Republic.

Article 278: The orders that tie the powers of the President of the Republic to the Armed Forces, through its Chief, shall be followed and exercised.

Title VII, Chapter 1: (constitutional reform)

Article 373: Constitutional reform can only be declared by the National Congress, in regular sessions, with a 2/3s vote of its members. The decree to be voted on will specify the article or articles to be reformed, and it must be concurred by the subsequent session of Congress by a 2/3s vote before it takes effect.

Article 374: It can not be reformed, under any circumstances, the previous article, this article, the Constitutional articles related to the form of government, the national territory, Presidential term-limits, the prohibition of a President to be re-elected, and the requirements and prohibitions on who can and can not be President.

 

Elsa

Check this out.

 

 

That is the graphic, here is the copy:

 

Thousands of supporters of ousted Honduras' President Manuel Zelaya march towards the international airport in Tegucigalpa, Saturday, July 4, 2009. Zelaya announced Saturday that he would return to Honduras to try to retake office following last week's military-backed coup, despite the interim government's insistence that he faces arrest and trial.(AP Photo/Esteban Felix)

Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All right reserved.

NOTE the year of the copyright of the image

Jilly

http://is.gd/1o7Uc

 

I think that's a typo. But on the link above I don't understand what the "creation date" is and there is no explanation.

Elsa

Here is where I saw what  I saw

I am very confused.

I heard from sources in country that the people are 80% in favor of the President not being reinstated. The news says the county is "split" which implies something closer to 50/50.

I tend to believe the people over the news but have no way of knowing.

Elsa

 

Picture on left - for the ouster of Zelaya

Picture on right - his supporters

Crackers

Elsa said: "But I have no way of knowing."  

And this is what I was musing on in my response to your "wrap up" post today, where you advise guarding your mind.  Just that in addition to healthy skepticism about things, there needs to be ways of testing the alleged facts.  And without first person knowledge, what are the tests?  

I'm very interested in devising some tests, so I can have actual opinions about things.  But I'm not willing to form opinions without that, and I'm not yet seeing good ways of so doing.  If I'm going to have to test everything first hand, I'm certainly going to have to pick and choose what to formulate opinions about.  I need a staff! 

Elsa

Crackers, I will make a new post of this...

Crackers

Great!  I'd love further discussion on this.  Lookin' forward to it.

maureen

WHy wouldn't the government simply prosecute Zeleya, or try to defeat him at the ballot box?   Whatever our political views about what's happening in Honduras, I wonder: at what point is a "democratic" government that flies an elected leader out of the country at gunpoint, and refuses to let him return, willing to do the same to an ordinary citizen?  Is either side really acting on behalf of the people?  I fear not.   This is about power, not people. 

Jilly

That's one thing I don't really understand about people, in general - how hardly anyone realizes that once someone gets to that level of authority, like President, it's all about Power.

No matter who is in office. No matter how they may present themselves.

Elsa

Honduras at the tipping point

Opinion pro the people - Wall Street Journal

Elsa

Preventing a Honduran Bloodbath

 

<div class="entry-body">
The United States Ambassador to Honduras, Hugo Llorens, an extremely competent diplomat, tried very hard to keep Honduras's Congress from ousting President Manuel Zelaya. After his arguments and pressures were exhausted, and faced with something that seemed inevitable, he did what he could: he sheltered the president's son at his residence to save him from any violent outcome.

Fortunately, Zelaya's expulsion from the presidency and from his country was bloodless. It wasn't exactly a military coup: the Army acted on orders from the Supreme Court after Zelaya's continued violations of the law. The ousted president seemed intent on getting reelected, even if it meant violating the Constitution, and on dragging the nation into Hugo Chávez's "21st century socialism" camp against the will of the Honduran people.

Nevertheless, if there is still something worse than the depressing spectacle of a freely elected president forced to leave his country at gunpoint, it is that same leader trying to force his way back in. If Zelaya returns, he will be arrested and charged with an array of crimes. His imprisonment will embarrass any who decide, irresponsibly, to accompany him on such a mad adventure.

This is most grave. Hugo Chávez and Daniel Ortega are already talking about invasions and resorting to force. That could unleash a bloodbath and would certainly destroy the weak political institutions that Honduras labored to achieve three decades ago, when the era of military dictatorships mercifully ended. Peter Hakim, president of Inter-American Dialogue, put it this way: "Zelaya is fighting with all the institutions in the country. He is in no condition really to govern."

And that's the truth. According to Mexican pollster Mitofsky's April survey, Zelaya was Latin America's least popular leader. Only 25 percent of the nation supported him. Another survey found that 67 percent of Hondurans would never vote for him again. Why? Because the Hondurans attributed to him a deep level of corruption; because they assumed he had links to drug trafficking, especially drugs originating in Venezuela, as former U.S. Ambassador to the O.A.S. Roger Noriega revealed in a well-documented article published in his blog; and because violence and poverty -- the nation's two worst scourges -- have increased dramatically during his three years in power.

Simply put, a huge majority of the country -- including the two major political parties (including Zelaya's), the Christian churches, the other branches of government and the armed forces -- do not want him as president...

 

and if you've the interest - read the comments... 92 of them

 

Jilly

That's the conclusion I finally came to, Elsa, but it is still confusing.

 

denamaria

Sometimes people only understand force....there is no diplomatic way out.  Look at the way he is still behaving....putting leaders of other countries in danger by wanting to fly back into a place that clearly does not want him with the other leaders on board with him.  

Last night, an inside source let me know that Mr. Zelaya was insistant on flying in and radioing into Honduras to let him in when he arrived.  He was told "NO".  The leaders of Ecuador, Venezuela, Nicaragua and Paraguay were to be on the plane with him, when they heard the Hondurans' response they decided to take another plane and follow....they later deterred to El Salvador.  It is crazy what Zelaya is doing....my friend told me that Zelaya wanted a bloodbath last night so it would be captured on CNN (he is close buddies with Ted Turner) and he would look like a victim still to the outside world.....

Chavez has flown in hundreds of Venezuelans and Cubans to stand in as protestors so that's the image we see on some of these photos...some of the stuff you are seeing is not real.... 

maureen

Zeleya was increasingly unpopular, widely mistrusted, in flagrant violation of his own country's constitution.   I still don't understand why he wasn't prosecuted to begin with.  Flying him out at gunpoint?  The majority of the population thought he was a turd, but what of the 30 percent who believed in him? Okay, even 5 percent---if you believe that the other 25 percent were thrown in from other countries to bolster his standing.  What message is the government sending the 5 percent?  Why on earth would a so-called democracy not let the people decide, either in a court of law or at the ballot booth?   Both sides bear responsibility for the chaos that is erupting now.   Treat Zeleya like a monster, and he will be one.  See, I have Pluto and Libra.  This is the way I process what I'm reading and hearing and seeing.    

moonpluto

Thank you for this thread - I am enjoying it - I knew nothing about Honduras and now I know a little something. It helped me understand the news I heard today much better as well-

(And I still love that cat, said the crab to the goat!)

satori

Maureen, you asked,"Why on earth would a so-called democracy not let the people decide, either in a court of law or at the ballot booth?"

but the people DID decide.  they decided when they elected the people who wrote the constitution.  they decided when the constitution was made law.  Zelaya legally gave up his rights to citizenship when he sought to change the constitution.  it's in the constitution itself.  the supreme court was not only within its rights but was acting on its DUTY by removing him from the country.

it's IN THE CONSTITUTION.  I don't see any problem with democracy here.  there's clearly no 2/3 majority (which is what the constitution demands for change) for constitutional change no matter what source one cites. 

maureen

Satori, poor choice of words on my part.   It's not a so-called democracy, it's a messy one.  I suppose they all are.    My point only, is that like it or not, Zeleya enjoyed a shred of support in Honduras----people who elected him.  By removing Zeleya from the country at gunpoint, I believe the government must now bear some of the responsibility for the chaos and violence that follows.  If I were a supporter of Zeleya in Honduras right now, I would be fearing for my life.   

Elsa

Petition to U.S. President Obama re Honduras

 

portion:

 

"It is true that Zelaya was forced to leave the country by the military, but this was not a coup, when the military were acting on direct orders of the Honduran supreme court, with overwhelming approval of the congress, including Zelaya’s own party. And the reason for this expulsion, bolstered by his extreme unpopularity with the people of Honduras, was Zelaya’s attempt to override the constitution to be reelected, in the manner of and with massive aid from Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez, a master of manipulation of elections. Now Chavez is supplying $6,000,000 and the full force of his influence towards returning Zelaya to power, against the overwhelming will of the Honduran people. Mr. Chavez is already talking about invasion and imposing his will by force in Honduras, when interim President Micheletti is advocating the earliest possible elections for a presidency he does not wish to hold."

 

I say, let these people vote in a President that respects and follows the laws of their constitution! 

Elsa

Speaking of agendas, Chavez is threatening to invade this country, kill people to put the president they don't want back in power.

And we are backing this??? 

 

Jilly

:(

Elsa

The petition is growing,. I would love to see it go viral but am probably a wishful thinker.

Elsa

Check out the comments on the petition (click on the numbered signatures)

 

People are begging for support for democracy. 

maureen

Based on my read of today's developments, it is heartening to me to see both sides opening up to a compromise:

Allowing Zelaya to return with symbolic power only, and holding an election asap.   The election would have happened in November...it would simply be moved up.   Zelaya will no doubt be voted out.    Whether he is prosecuted or not, remains unclear.   I hope he is.  But if he is allowed to return, supporters of Zelaya in Honduras....small minority as it is...would at least have the comfort of knowing democracy works for them too.   Again, my Libra.......if someone whom I supported was whisked away at gunpoint, and I was only told about it after it happened... I would be fearing for my life. 

My fervent hope for Honduras is that whoever is in power after this will use the international support they already have, to address that nation's crushing poverty.  Zelaya wasted the opportunity.  Enough is enough.

Thanks for letting me express my opinion---it helps me clarify my own views, values, etc.  One other reason I love this forum.

 

qasseia

Here's an interesting article that calls the coup a coup:

http://www.soaw.org/presente/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=217&Itemid=74

One tidbit of particular interest is that in Honduras (as in the US) the president (Zelaya) was commander in chief of the armed forces.  Arguments that the military was acting legally by following the directions of the Supreme Court are rendered pretty hollow by that fact.

Also, regarding the constitution itself, you need to put it in historical context. Regarding the non-binding poll on amending the constitution (which is, ya know, something we've done a few times here in the US) the author of the above article writes

<span style="font-family: Arial"><font face="Verdana" size="1">Such an initiative has never taken place in the Central American nation, which has a very limited constitution that allows minimal participation by the people of Honduras in their political processes. The current constitution, written in 1982 during the height of the Reagan Administration’s dirty war in Central America, was designed to ensure those in power, both economic and political, would retain it with little interference from the people. Zelaya, elected in November 2005 on the platform of Honduras’ Liberal Party, had proposed the opinion poll be conducted to determine if a majority of citizens agreed that constitutional reform was necessary. He was backed by a majority of labor unions and social movements in the country. If the poll had occured, depending on the results, a referendum would have been conducted during the upcoming elections in November to vote on convening a constitutional assembly. Nevertheless, today’s scheduled poll was not binding by law.</font>

The bright side to all of this is that we're all learning a lot about Honduras.

Jilly

Interview with Zelaya from the left-leaning Democracy Now folks

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/9/in_rare_us_broadcast_ousted_honduran