I have a birth certificate that says I was born at 1:17 PM, and that *exact* minute was the one at which the ascendant changed signs all those years ago. Therefore, my ascendant is, or should be, 0 Capricorn.

But sometimes I wonder. If were born one minute earlier my ascendant would have been 29 sadge, which fits me a little better, looking back at my life. I was never attached too much to loveand if I was it had to have a strong philosophical component, I have wild ideas about what I'm supposed to do with myself, I'm a deep studier of the occult/new age/ eastern philosophies, I've traveled the world and I have a ton of degrees. I'm tall, my hair is reddish, I have kind of big teeth.  Also, Jupiter seems to be a mover in my chart. I have very different experiences depending on whether it's at the top or the bottom. Saturn doesn't really seem to have the same effect.

I go back to this question periodically. Vedically I am a sadge, and if I looked at my chart using whole signs as a sadge it changes everything. Neptune goes into the 12th, not the 10th, Saturn in the 2nd and not the 3rd.

Anybody else have this problem?

If it was me, I think I would go with my gut feeling, which sounds like yours is saying Sadge.  Especially when we're talking only one minute.  I mean the doctors, nurses, your mother, etc... were all pretty busy at the time and it's not hard to believe that it might have taken them a minute or two to look up at the clock and record the time.

I go with what Carrie says: your gut is telling you the truth. I doubt people always note the time exact minute the baby arrives, it's usually pandemonium after all.

Yeah, I feel like I could be, and it explains some stuff. Like my thing for Geminis. And the fact that I could give a rat's ass about the threadcount of anything, and what I really want to do is not own anything and go live in a yurt. I just have no interest in stuff, except stuff that's either packable or exchangeable as currency.

My two jobs now are writing horoscopes and working at a research lab. For close to no money, and what I want to do is get an even smaller place so if I have to take off I don't have to worry about what to do with a freakin dining room table.

Then again, my sun is progressed there now so maybe I'm just developing Sadgie as a trait. And, well, my mom is gone now so I don't have to worry about horrifying her with my lackadaisical attitude...

Yes I feel sure you are on to something - Cap and Sag are very different energies indeed, and all the Caps I know feel very Cap - and come across very Cap. We like foundations, and building something lasting. Sounds like you're much more of an up-up-and-away Saggie sort!

I believe that there is such a thing as a cusp (not all astrologers do), so you could be both signs. But the way you dress (one of the ways in which you project yourself outward) could be another clue. Do you wear bright colours and daring fashions, or do you tend to wear more earthy browns and greens, and tend to dress more conservatively? And when people first meet you, do they perceive you as being someone loud and reckless who talks a lot (Sagittarius), or quiet and cautious (Capricorn).

Note: As a rather general statement, with Sagittarius rising in the chart of the USA, Americans observed overseas are perceived as being quite loud, and they tend to talk a lot, and often they tip more generously than other tourists (all Sagittarius rising traits).

Yes I feel sure you are on to something - Cap and Sag are very different energies indeed, and all the Caps I know feel very Cap - and come across very Cap.

No, not me -- not *ever*. I was always wildly imaginative and what I wanted to do when I was little was be an archeologist, led by my favorite book, D"aulaires Greek Myths, which I read over and over. I was a fabulist ( read liar). I wrote songs on paper and sang them. I was in a rock and roll band.

I was never good with or interested in money; and I walk aroud dressed like I'm close to homeless most of the time. I don't own a pair of good anything. I lose jewelry.  I married a guy who was pumping my gas. My car is twelve years old.

The other thing that got me thinking about this is that my new friend here is a Cap rising. I make a lot of Cap rising friends, I gotta say. But she's got good suits, and a good job, but she wants to retire and get a second career as a hospice nurse. She's always dressed incredibly well. She has dark hair and dark eyes and perfect bone structure. And I thought, wow, I am just nothing like that at all.

sagittarius, eh. Well, I'll try it on for a while. Thanks for input all!

Okay.. yours would be a few minute earlier, because by the time doctors and nurses look at the clock its five minutes later. Because in the room during the birth, they scream the "it's here", "it's a girl" they oo and aaa over the baby, and do all of that medical stuff like cleaning. Then they record the time of birth.

It was like 5-10mins later. 

I'm a Cap Rising kiddy but my stellium in Sag kind of over rides the Cap.

I think you're right about a delay occurring, in recording the actual birthtime, Sunny, right down to the reasons it might happen !

@eva -- I've run into the same issue that you have. I'm a Leo, and always thought my ascendant was Leo as well, but I found out two years ago that my recorded birth time makes me a Virgo asc., @ 1 degree. I already have a tightly-packed first house (Virgo), so a lot of the traits, but I don't see myself as a Virgo asc. AT ALL !

I have always wondered about this issue - ie that doctors and nurses and busy when a baby is born and probably forget to write birth times down immediately after birth.  I was worried about this with my own daughter so had my eye half glued on the clock during labour.

I can vouch for it without a doubt that she was born at 4:34 am! But for you? I think you should go with your gut ... I'm a Sag sun and can attest to many of the qualities you've described...though my car is 11 years old and hast rusty wheel wells - wouldn't want to spend the money to fix it because I'd rather spend it on my trip to France - haha

Mahchi, LOL.  The first thing I did when all three kids were born was look at the clock!

I have two recorded times for Mr. Cap, in fact.  It's only a two minute difference and doesn't change his Virgo Rising, BUT if he was born a few minutes later, that two minute difference would have made a BIG difference.  Is he Virgo or Libra rising?

The baby Scorpio has 1 Leo rising.  I calculated her approximate ASC and came up with late Cancer.  Good thing I looked at the clock.  9:30, and 9:30 is on her BC.  She's in no way, shape or form a shy, retiring Cancer rising.  She's noisy, loud, and boisterious - all Leo!

I've known a lot of Caps and have a Cap stellium - and as a matter of record, I don't know a SINGLE Cap who is obsessed with money and business, nor tries to 'keep up with the Joneses'. In my experience, Caps are careful with money, often becuase we don't have much! We can be quite idealistic, and won't get far on a career path unless it's something we really believe in. So imo, it's just not true that Caps are all very business and career oriented.

For the same reasons, almost all my clothes and even shoes are second-hand and always have been! - I like to look 'smart' though, or at least appropriately dressed. I don't come over as the thrift-shop maven that I am ;)

<----- Agrees with Wizron.

I'm another believer in Cusps. 5-degrees (+/-) either side of the border seems to me to "blend" the energies.... granted , the sign currently has the majority of the strength.

eva, for what it's worth, a well respected astrologer specializing in rectification once told that odd were always that the birth time was earlier than recorded because the hospital staff delivers the baby and then looks at the clock.

I did not read the other comments, but as far as how you come across on the boards - I'd vote for Sadge. You tend to pontificate (no negative connotation to that), you talk about religion a lot and you're expansive in general.  I also recall when someone PM's you stuff about me and you broadcast it (in my favor not theirs) which was very Sadge and righteous.

That's my input on this. :)

Sounds right to go with the Sadge asc Eva.

BP, that's really odd about the Caps you know. I know 5 - 3 are wealthy, two are investment brokers and own multiple properties. The latest one is a single mom on welfare Cap. So that's weird eh? It's like with Cancers. I know several who are very well off, and also several others who live at poverty line. I'd really like to see all their individual charts sometimes to find out what gifts they were bestowed with to do so well :-)

Do you have Sag anywhere else that could be another cause of you feeling more Sag than Cap? I would look into that. If it's not there, then yeah, I'd go for the Sag ASC. :)

Dunno. When my daughter came out, it wasn't like there was only one doctor in the room. The one doctor delivered her and one of the other nurses wrote down that exact minute, so I know her birthtime is accurate.

Of course, every birth is different. But yeah, you are right on the cusp. I'm a 0 degree Gemini, so people often thought I was a Taurus, but I knew I was a Gemini!

I know two Capricorns really well, and they both own properties and they are both workaholics.

I should add to my previous comment above - they are both people that I like and respect.

Well, thanks, all, for your input. It makes sense to me for all kinds of reasons, especially since without a sadge rising I only have one fire planet, a dissolved mars, and given the way I go lurching off into things, most especially marriages -- I am either a sadge or the most badly behaved Capricorn you could possibly imagine.

It drives me crazy though. Because, right, if the nurse/midwife is going to look at the clock and round *up*, why not just go to 1:20 then? Why is it 1:17? And if it's rounding, why not round down then?

Lol, I do pontificate, don't I? You should have heard me and Gemini ex in one of our religious arguments. We would have tired y'all out :)

maybe they had a really big clock, with noticeable hand locations and when she looked up it was 1:17 ?