I was watching a program on finding the source for Noah's flood and there was a quote that grabbed my attention (slightly paraphrasing; I didn't write the entire quote, unfortunately):

"The Bible is like a person:  torture it long enough and it will tell you almost anything you want to hear.  It's not a science book."

Dr. Rev. Francis H. Wade

Now, this was specifically in response to an argument on whether the world was created over a period of days (creationism) or over eons (evolution).  But I'd like to know what you guys think.

Do you agree with Dr. Rev. Wade or not?  Do you think this argument has merit?  Or do you prefer to not think about it too much?  Are you lean more towards creationism or evolution?

that sounds oddly familiar. i have a quote on my desk about torturing data... let me hunt.

yeah yeah... here it is...

Coase coined the well known, but often misquoted adage "If you torture the data long enough, it will confess."

British-born, American based economist Ronald Coase.

so it seems torture, generally, will yield anything you wish it to.

i like that idea..  not to belittle anyones ideas of faith (i already got ragged on for compairing jesus to glucosamine once here).  but i see that as the idea that interpretation is key.  if you pull something apart long enough, you can extrapolate anything. it's the same in the artistic community.  search for meaning long enough and you can make anything poignant. 

this makes me think of semiotics, something i'm only slightly familiar with.

Don't get me started baby!!! =)

McKenna!!!!!  it's been ages...  get started! i'm ready 

"so it seems torture, generally, will yield anything you wish it to."

Very true.  Sometimes it will also yield the truth.  ;)

"if you pull something apart long enough, you can extrapolate anything."

Good point!  I know a lot of people that don't put stock in meta-studies (where someone / a group compiles and correlates data from multiple studies to test / prove a hypothesis) for the exact same reason.

Interesting to apply that to the art world as well.  It's certainly a different, but applicable, direction that I never thought of!  :)

This is a bit like astrologers who (accidentally) pull up the wrong chart for an event that has occurred, and then make the chart fit the event!

Hey @rantares =)

No... NOT starting =D everyone will think I'm insane.

Well, more insane!

i don't know why... but this came to mind...

http://www.cooks.com/rec/view/0,167,156163-254198,00.html

We're all mad here, McK.  ;)

Ooh, good example, Wizron!  I've seen that happen quite a bit and it always seems reasonable to me until I notice the chart's off... 

a ha ha ha @Michele... think that's called buying time!! Don't ya have to pull that stuff for like AGES???

Mmm... taffy.  *rubs tummy*  I've not done the hand-pulled stuff, but even with a taffy puller it takes forever.

I plead Neptune... I was thinking I was in the "last meal" thread!

Jeez, imagine having to function the way I do every day

@SaD... I've always wanted to take a crack at that, but the opportunity has never arisen... ah, one fine day ;)

fact is, in my opinion, the bible is a text. all texts are open for interpretation. whether you stretch is to kingdom come or you simply read it and come to you your own interp. or someone reads it for you and gives you theirs.  

it is a text. a document. it should, again my opinion, be dealt with as a thing written by humans.

god did not descend from the heavens and present this. hence the many books that are a part of it. i mean, the morman's joseph smith - is he more of a prophet that any of the others? nope.

it is my feeling that they received info that they needed to receive. confuses humanity -- which is unfortunate. but such is life.

the bible is a book. and from books we learn.

I don't see why people believe that everything in this world suddenly came to exist in a Big Bang over a God creating the world in 7 days.

Anyway, this issue comes down to faith. The more I know of the world of science and how ordered it is, the more I believe that it did not simply explode into being from a single molecule/atom/etc.

The Bible is often factual but it is open to interpretation. Much was written long after what happened so it can be safe to say that some was embellished by the writer and also, the Bible was arranged by the church who chose what to put in and what not to, but I do believe the message of Christ (the New Testament).

Have to take what that book says with a grain of salt because its been translated so many times. No saying how politicians and the church influenced the various different versions that have been in circultaion.

I mean the bible expects us to believe that a child was concieved with no sexual act....in that case he is not related to any one on his fathers side just his mothers.....his divinty is tied to his fathers lineage via king david. If joseph is not his father then he could not ascend the throne....

LOL ! I've never heard the 'torture' analogy, but it fits well.

My analogy for the bible, is the Buddhist parable of 'The Six Blind Men and the Elephant'; as it's meaning can only be interpreted from a person's (or a group's) vantage point. Since my own childhood, I've never been able to understand how much free will a person has been willing to surrender, in defense of their (or their group's) interpretation of it. Baffling.

Actually I lean more towards BOTH creationism's idea that it was created quite quickly (at first i.e. "big bang theory") then it evolved over time.

But whether or not an intellegent being was behind the "creation" is best left to the individual.  Whatever makes you happier I guess is the best decision for you.  :)

Ha ha, I was meditating on this, and thought of something (among others...).

People are fallible and full of flaws. A comparison of a book written by the flawed and fallible, TO the flawed and fallible; fits really well. Ergo, Bible = fallible and flawed.

One thing we f--ups have over a book though, is our boundless capacity for LOVE. To me, that's all that is real; flaws and all.

Namaste ~

To God an aeon is like a day.

le_soleil, beautifully put!  Thank you for that.

:-)

@Estep16 -- *fistbump*  Thanks, and you're more than welcome !

It's been translated and re-translated so many times that the net result is tons of contradictions.

Is it good as a spiritual guide (speaking as a practicing Catholic)?  Absolutely.  Should it be taken literally?  Nope.

Toomuchpluto is right. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew - a notoriously difficult language to translate - and the New Testament in Greek. That is already a translation of the words of Christ, who spoke in Aramaic. There are too many instances of 'political' renderings in the various translations of the bible to ennumerate here.

Curiously, I'm just reading Norman Lebrecht's The Song of Names in which there is a reference to the mis-translation from Hebrew of the concept of the Seven Days of Creation. In the original Hebrew, a 'day' of creation is a pretty elastic notion, and the Jews do not consequently share the Christian idea that God created the world in a mundane week!

It's a fascinating novel btw; Lebrecht is better known as a music critic

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/733768.The_Song_of_Names

*fistbump @Nota*  I was wondering who was going to say that one.  ;)

Me! But not so succinctly as Nota (as usual)

BP that book sounds good!

I see what they're saying. I definitely think it can be true. I don't think that's ALL there is to the Bible, though. There's some objective good to it, I think, some usefulness. 

I think God created the world in a way that it is able to evolve. I think God was involved, yes. It just seems absurd to me that all the other planets are gas planets or ice planets or just barren rock, while our planet flourishes with life that questions its own origin. I think the odds of our success are too slim to have happened by chance. However, I think the evidence for evolution is pretty strong and that it's clear the earth didn't look like it does now long long ago. I have no idea how old the earth actually is, but I don't think a million/billion year time frame is ridiculous to attribute to God. Time, after all, is kind of man-made...

I think when you combine a Creator with the science community's version of the story, the earth is full of magic and majesty, beauty and wonder. I don't see how they are incompatible at all. I also am not really sure why it matters if we "know" or not. Even if we already know the true story of our origins, we wouldn't even KNOW that we KNOW. So who cares? LOL I just like to imagine it and hear other people's imaginings. Maybe someone's right! Great! But I am not concerned with "accuracy" in this matter since I think accuracy is impossible. 

*wonders why I dont get Nota's comment*

Ahhhh the woes of having Pisces....

My concept of god is also so vague right now....

THM how do u know there is no life on all the other planets?