My Russian neighbor a Gemini/Capricorn with Leo rising was over this evening catching me up on what had happened to her daughter, also a Gemini, who used to live right next door to me with her 24 year-old boyfriend of six years.

"She moved to Annapolis with rich American husband!" says her mom.

"What? She has already found ANOTHER man and gotten married in just a few months?"

 "Yes, after boyfriend went back to Russia, she placed ad with agency in Petersburg and found husband here. Wedding was in July. They are so in love."

Just like that? WTF? SHE DOESN'T EVEN SPEAK FREAKIN' ENGLISH!

I actually have personally met a number of Russian mail-order brides over the years--know a couple of them. Most do not last, but that's whole other story.

I just sat there thinking...here is the mother who is far better looking, more sophisticated, more charming, SPEAKS FREAKIN' ENGLISH, yet her daughter is the one getting married. The daughter doesn't work whereas mom is an aesthetician--financially independent. The financially needy women are getting snatched up left and right, so it seems!

She goes on to update me on her sister, a double Aquarius with lots of Aquarius all over her chart. She actually primarily lives in Russia with her very rich, younger boyfriend who supports her, but when she fights with him, she comes here and stays with my friend (her sister) for extended visits. All I know about her is she is always smoking out back. According to my friend, she cheats on him all the time, is a major alcoholic and has an incredibly selfish and volatile personality. Despite all this, the guy keeps taking her back and supprting her. He is crazy about her.

Why? I don't get it!

"Well, she is beautiful. She has nice figure....She loves sex..."

I was dumbfounded! These are reasons for the guy to put up with her crap? This woman is NOT that good-looking actually. I've lived in that part of the world, and good-looking women are a dime a dozen there. But why would anyone put up with an alcoholic, the infidelity, the abuse? I don't get it!

This is just one example that came to mind tonight. It happens all around us. Why do some people basically get away with murder? On the otherhand, people like me are totally faithfual, treat their men "like kings," are very loving, try to do all the right things, actually have integrity, but may nag a little now and then, and BAM, we're out!

Nothing can make sense of this insanity except perhaps astrology! And of course, the stars seem to have shat upon me once again! But seriously though, some of us get no break--and others seem to just get away with murder!

It seems like you direct all of your ire towards women when in fact you should also consider the men involved. Anyway:

"On the other hand, people like me are totally faithful, treat their men 'like kings,' are very loving, try to do all the right things, actually have integrity, but may nag a little now and then, and BAM, we're out!"

That's hard to believe to completely, contrasted with your other posts -- I'm not trying to be hard on your ass, I'm just not sure you're interested in real answers. It's obvious you're a passionate person (I can't find your chart anywhere on the boards -- I probably missed it). The way you write this, it's like this woman who apparently is bugging you is getting away with murder ... right? Assuming you are right ... why does this bother you so much? Is the guy she is screwing over that great? You don't even know him. You just know what somebody else said.

I feel that you are looking at this woman (who may in fact be as awful as you say) and using her as an avatar for all womankind or something similar. Not to say that the men you're "treating like kings" may not necessarily deserve being treated that way. Maybe you are attracted to assertiveness and mistake asshole-ness for that. I have no clue. It just seems like you want to blame women for your problems.

No. Not at all. I just look around and wonder why some people, regardless of gender, can get away with treating their partners like total crap and be taken back again and again. Yet, I see other great people who remain single or get dumped for far lesser reasons. This woman doesn't faze me much either way actually--it was simply an example, but one of many that I come across all too often. Don't read too much into it.

Geez, you've already pigeon-holed me into being a woman-hater from two posts? So you are saying that INSTEAD I should direct my anger at men? I'm actually not into gender-bashing either direction actually.

My other post discussing my most recent disastrous "relationship" is not at all reflective of me nor my typical interactions with men. I thought I made that clear. You don't know me--and you could not even begin to get close on figuring me out, because you are already so off. I made the mistake of jumping into this board fully open and exposed not knowing there would be someone lurking and ready to cast the first stone as they sit in judgment. I thought this "community" was open-minded and not into personal attacks. Guess I was wrong.

I thought this "community" was open-minded and not into personal attacks. Guess I was wrong.

I'm not trying to attack you personally. I feel that you stereotype people. You asked for opinions and I gave one to you. You might want to wait for other opinions before painting us all with a wide brush.

I'm not steretyping anyone. I happen to have a diversity of friends and am just describing them here. But if that offends you, then look away.

It's easy to find 'a husband' or 'a wife'. It's not so easy to find someone to have a 'real' relationship with. My guess is that many of the mail-order marriages are just about appearances and status and are not really anything to be envious of.

Hi Ambidge,

I'm not at all envious about mail-order marriages, in fact I believe they exploit women. The title of my post was really just a joke. The whole point of my story was that so many people (men and women) will find and tolerate partners who are totally unacceptable (especially in the case of the second woman I described who is alcoholic, unfaithful, abusive). I see so many examples of this kind of thing all the time.

In Washington, DC there are MANY single women (we are outnumbered 3 to 1, some say 4 to 1). Many are well-educated, well-travelled, interesting, independent with good-paying careers, yet they cannot get a man due to the ratio. It is a big problem in this city and a common topic of conversation. If someone from this area is reading this, I am sure they will confirm what I am saying here.

So it is especially unnerving for us to see people not appreciate their partners--just in general. What I don't understand is why some partners tolerate so much abuse (infidelity, drugs/alcohol, other emotional abuse) for so long--when there are so many good men/women available! That's all.

I'm not steretyping anyone. I happen to have a diversity of friends and am just describing them here. But if that offends you, then look away.

But before you said ...

Nothing can make sense of this insanity except perhaps astrology! And of course, the stars seem to have shat upon me once again! But seriously though, some of us get no break--and others seem to just get away with murder!

Here you are obviously relating this story to yourself. You are quite clearly comparing yourself to someone who apparently treats her man like a king while others get away with being horrible to their own partners. Well, the thing is, the man you were apparently treating like a king wasn't so great to begin with, which other people pointed out as well. I mean, HELLO! He lied to you and pretended he had a wife. Is this a mark of a good man? I don't think so.

Look, I will stop giving you advice, because I don't think you want it. I'm sorry. But I hope you feel better soon.

I don't know about your neighbor or whatever, but I myself have been briefly fascinated with the mystique surrounding Russian women, the hardships they've endured, the way that their culture has shaped their attitude toward relationships/treament of males and how all of that affects the attitude they have coming over here and the respect they get from American men.

I would be curious to know the astrology behind this... they say that each country is ruled by a sign?? I don't know much at all about that but I've read it in a few places.

A while back I read something about Russian women knowing how to give the male ego something that the "independent-minded American woman" generally does not. (I'm not saying that all US women are independent minded, nor am I saying that they do or do not "give their men what he needs to feel like a man.")

But the article that I read talked about a certain mystique surrounding Russian women... ummm... they actually had a Russian word for it, the word started with a K but now when I try to Google all I get is Russian Mail Order Brides sites - ha ha!

Anyway, the article talked about Russian women outnumbering men over there, so there's this competition to find and keep a really good man, since so many of them (the men) are alcoholic slobs who may or may not work and don't give their women any respect). So the ones that come over here find our men, many of whom are now in touch with their more gentle, feminine sides, and those women have their special knack of pretending they're not as smart as they really are, putting the man's needs (ego) first, are not above cooking and cleaning etc,, and of course being sexy and beautiful-- and naturally American men think they've died and gone to heaven.

I guess the subtle point they were trying to make was that maybe some American women need a reminder not to take our men for granted.

I remember reading about the "secret" having to do with pretending the guy is in control of all the decisions and pretending things were his idea and that sort of thing. I don't know... this is not coming across as I'd like, but I wish I could find the piece I read because it was so well written and cultural/gender behavior differences fascinate me. 

My best friend adopted a little Russian girl at age 2 and a half. The little girl IS beautiful, and sure, this is only an example of one Russian child I've known, but she does have that "indirect" way of asking for what she wants. It strikes me as kind of funny, coincidence or no. She'll do stuff like hover around where people are eating and ask "What is that??" even though she damn well knows it's a hot dog, and the idea is that obviously she wants some although she won't come out and say it. The little girl's a Taurus (so's her mom) and I have no idea the rest of the chart, but when I see her doing this I flash back to that article about Russian women and how tapped into their "feminine, receptive" nature they are.

Anywho. Just some thoughts on Russian women. 

Hmm- I think many women who do get hitched despite being financially dependent, not speak the language, and many other 'negative'things, is that they do in other areas please the husband. And I mean please in an old-fashioned submissive way. VERY submissive way. I lived in Italy for a while where many men are now marrying Polish wives because they are more obedient than the Italian ladies who are no longer putting up with their machismo. It's a problem for the women. Some men don't want the whole independent woman business to deal with. Too complicated.

That's a different story to partners who put up with 'abuse'- that's more of an unhealthy dependency issue.

Well, Piya, I won't argue with you that I have been involved with a total schmuck, or at least someone who is a bit screwed up. But it really has nothing to do with stereotyping. (Btw, I almost always just date foreign men--what does this mean? I hate Americans! ) I agree that his lies and mindgames are definitely not the mark of a good man (you're right) and I am doing my damnedest NOT to go back to him when I return to CA. There must be a reason I've been stuck in DC longer than expected. The gods work in mysterious ways!

Anyway, I can assure you, though I have had plenty of screwed up relationships, this one was totally from left-field. Totally unlike any other. None were abusive like this. I also do not blame other women for anything. I do rant and rave, but I get over it quickly. Lots of fire in my chart. Plus I'm Italian! (Oops, there I go stereotyping again, but hey, Elsa says that too and this is her blog!)

So I will post my chart if you want to dig into that--I have a feeling you are chomping at the bit. I'm sure your "enthusiasm" is well-intended. You got somebody to set me up with or something?

I would be curious to know the astrology behind this... they say that each country is ruled by a sign?? I don't know much at all about that but I've read it in a few places.

Dina, funny you should mention this. My friend from Russia and I were discussing this very topic tonight. I was telling her that to determine the horoscope of a place, you use the date of founding/discovery or independence, and "place of birth" would be the capital. Perhaps someone else knows about this? I heard a lecture on this a while ago, and it was interesting to hear New York, DC, CA. It was so accurate describing their "personalities and what each was going through! I have a feeling my homestate of CA is a Virgo given all the financial woes, fires, etc.

Knowing nothing about the astrology of places and going purely on the "flavor" of people I come across there, I'd label California as Aquarius. Very progressive, democratic, "for the group and not the individual" etc.

On September 9, 1850, as part of the Compromise of 1850, California was admitted to the United States as a free state (one in which slavery was prohibited). (From Wikipedia)

It is Virgo!!!  My poor state! But at least there is hope that things should be getting better!

New York's admission to the Union July 26, 1788 (Leo). Broadway! Hello!

The Soviet Union was formed December 30, 1922 (Capricorn, ie Saturn) Totalitarianism. Totally makes sense!

Nazi Germany, February 27, 1933. Aquarius rebellion

Nevada, admission to union October 31, 1864 (Scorpio)

Hawaii, August 21, 1959 (Leo)

Wow!

Not to be argumentative here (LIBRA!! :D) but should you count the day of inception into the US or should you count the day the first settler threw a stake into the ground, or what? ;)

In any case, cool discussion and interesting to see the birthdays of various US states!

Nevada really IS very Scorpio... holy shit.

Dina,

I am familiar with what you are talking about. I have my own way of treating men that is different from the norm--maybe closer to what you're describing. Not sure if it is my upbringing or my stars or having lived in the former Soviet Union and elsewhere in Europe. I have been told often by both men and women of various cultures that I'm "not like most American women" whatever that means, this includes men I've been involved with.

I have done grad coursework in cultural anthropology, so I've paid close attention to these kind of "mating rituals." I can't say I personally use some of the tactics like pouting or using the silent treatment. But there are other ways to make a man feel like a man--like you cited making him feel you value his opinion, or letting him make the decisions (at least the ones that don't matter much--like what to eat, what movie to watch). This can be viewed as a sacrifice for the one you love. I know others might view this as not respectful--but it works both ways.

There is a teaching within the Catholic Church on Submission in Marriage which relates to this. I searched, but could not find the exact thing. On the surface it sounds pretty bad, especially to anyone from a feminist perspective. But taking a closer look, and realizing the nature of men and women, natural instincts that go back millenia, a lot of it does make sense.

No, you count the day of the official admission or independence. There is no way of knowing when the FIRST person stepped foot here tens of thousands of years ago. Plus, the "proclamation" is a more momentous time.

So very funny about Nevada. You gotta wonder if they had a sense of humor--tho, was Halloween being celebrated yet in this country?

Many of the conservative states (Utah, TX, other southern states), I noticed, were admitted during Capricorn!

I just looked up Wyoming--Cancer, my rising sign. I LOVE Wyo! Not sure how that sign relates tho--the first one to stump me.

Hi Vespa ~

All I am hearing is your frustrations regarding single life, and not yet having found Mr. Right.  Believe me, from a male perspective, I can totally relate to this type of situation. Over the years I have witnessed countless examples of women who just seemed like they had it all, glued tightly to guys that just seemed like a total mis-match. After years of this kind of example seemingly everywhere I went, one can easily fall into the trap of thinking "what's wrong with me"? Do I need to become a complete jerk for women to see me? For me it's like a feeling of invisibility, coupled by some degree of loneliness, feeling left out, or that it's not fair, perhaps something along those lines.

Anyway, on the other hand, I am guessing you are probably highly selective in your choices for men, and already know what you don't want, and refuse to settle for less. If so I agree, settling for less just wouldn't be possible for genuine fulfillment. Lot's of people stay together or even marry for the wrong reasons and I am thinking you just know better.

If this is the case then that's just the way it is.  You have probably been told by friends that you need to lower your standards, or something ridiculous like that, which I totally disagree with. When the right guy comes along you will know it and there will be no doubt in your mind that he's the one for you. (maybe not right at first, but over time). I think if you can just hang in there, you will eventually find each other, and it will be worth the wait. Lay the idea of the biological clock aside for a while (if that's an issue) and trust that life will bring you exactly what you need right on time.

Oh, one more thing to add to that, wouldn't it be great if there were enough rich and wonderful partners to go around for everyone?  Yes, it only takes one, and that if that's what's in the cards for you that's awesome.

I think most would agree that love trumps cash (maybe we should do a poll on that), any day of the week. But hmm, maybe I'm way off.  In other countries most definitely, IMO. But wealthy or not, when you really find someone to match your capacity to love, well, as you know those kind of mundane details fall by the wayside.

Perhaps our partner comes in a form that's even better than we could ever have expected, and even more likely in a form that we least expect.

Permission to have it all!

BTW VespaChick, you're one of my favorite newish posters here! And I love your avatar.

Edit: bwahaha, I just looked more closely at your avatar and realized it's someone with their arm around you?  I was mis-seeing it as you making a kind of ka-pow! gesture to the camera.  Still a nice pic.

Number 1) Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, always.  There is no objective standard for beauty no matter what the media would like us to believe. You cannot say, here, this woman is more beautiful than this woman, so why is she not chosen. Everyone is beautiful in their own way.

To take this idea a step further, The criteria that you use to judge the suitability of a partner are not universal.  Why does he not see that she has all these obvious problems? Maybe they just aren't problems to him.

Number 2) Marriage is not a move for the win, it is not a goal, it is not an indicator that the parties involved are somehow "better" than the rest of us because they got the certificate in hand.  It is a contract that people enter into for lots of complex personal reasons (often financial, lets be real here.)   If you feel like you are missing out because you havn't won the gettin' hitched lottery yet, then you are idealizing marriage as some kind of marker of success. 

Hi VespaChick,

Mercury in Taurus so pardon my bluntness here but quite honestly I think you should subtitle your posts 'How to NOT do Saturn in Virgo'.  You are a Virgo.  Who are you serving?  Certainly you seem quite unhappy eventhough there a many without the benefits of the education, money, job etc that you have said to have and yet these people seem happy. If you want all that life has to offer you...you HAVE to be the best you that you can be.  

I say this because after reading some of your posts, I'm not sure if you actually read the blog.  This blog is about SELF awareness and SELF responsiblity etc.  I believe what everyone is trying to point out is that it doesn't matter what everyone else is doing.  Or what everyone else has.  What matters is how you take care of YOU!

I also believe that you are finding little compassion here because you are giving little.  I suppose I read the posts of other people on here and know many people with problems that would bring a person to their knees and the problems you write about seem more suited for the Jerry Springer show.

I am not invalidating that they cause you pain, I am simply saying...perspective, detachment and compassion would help tremendously.  Maybe as a Virgo, serving others less fortunate than yourself would help you to gain these blessings.

I think notatirem has a point about the relative nature of partner criteria, but this can be taken too far, beyond common sense.  Since when is selfish volatility seen as a good thing?

I don't think the Russian bride marriage is a kind of marriage that one should be all that jealous of.  I also don't think people can really fall in love in the compass of that kind of interaction.  But then again, just because I think so, it doesn't mean they can't. 

I don't really like the stereotypes thrown around in that article you read on Russian women, dina2.   I think the mystique thing exoticizes them.  I'm a Russian woman, but then again I'm living in America for a long time.  

Hi EarthtoKirk,

Yes, you get much of what I'm trying to say, although the biological clock is not at all an issue since I've never at all wanted kids. I'm not even sure I want to marry again--I was married to my high school sweetheart in my early 20's (that relationship was 9 years), but I've been "single" for a while now.

Not that I haven't had my share of relationships and falling in love, but for me, none have "stuck" hence my frustration. It does seem that some who are quite mismatched can have things suddenly "tightly glued" together, as you say. That's what baffles me.

I also don't want anyone to misconstrue that $$ is what I'm after just because it was part of the story above. Compared to most people, I care less about money acually than most people. (I drive a Vespa because I live a simple life). My last three boyfriends looked very bohemian--I thought they were poor--AND I DIDN'T MIND, but they all ended up being more than comfortable and I did not find it out until long after being involved. One for example, was unemployed having just gotten back from working as an engineer in Africa for a couple of years. I had no idea he had tons in savings; I always thought he was scraping by given the way he lived. The guy in the photo, my ex-boyfriend, comes from a wealthy family but is an anthropologist and very eccentric. So I never go after men with $$. For me, it's purely about chemistry. Maybe that has been a mistake. I don't know.

Edit: bwahaha, I just looked more closely at your avatar and realized it's someone with their arm around you?  I was mis-seeing it as you making a kind of ka-pow! gesture to the camera.  Still a nice pic

Hey quasseia,

Thanks for the kind words and welcome. That is too funny about the "Kapow!" I will think of it as that from now on, so go ahead and keep picturing it. It suits my recent angst!

notatirem, I totally get what you are saying about individual critieria, however I also agree with dina that there has to be balance and common sense.

I say this because after reading some of your posts, I'm not sure if you actually read the blog.  This blog is about SELF awareness and SELF responsiblity etc.  I believe what everyone is trying to point out is that it doesn't matter what everyone else is doing.  Or what everyone else has.  What matters is how you take care of YOU!

I also believe that you are finding little compassion here because you are giving little.  I suppose I read the posts of other people on here and know many people with problems that would bring a person to their knees and the problems you write about seem more suited for the Jerry Springer show.

I am not invalidating that they cause you pain, I am simply saying...perspective, detachment and compassion would help tremendously.  Maybe as a Virgo, serving others less fortunate than yourself would help you to gain these blessings.

kvk,

One of the most glaring things I've encountered my first days here--just from a handful of people is this rush to JUDGMENT. "Self-aware" or enlightened folk usually don't have to wave a big flag around to proclaim they are AWARE nor are they ever rushing onto the assumption train--a grave mistake that many make on this blog, in their lives in general.

I completely agree that serving others is perhaps one of the best ways to pull one out from the lower periods of their lives. These last few months, due to a myriad of health problems, I've not been able to work or volunteer to the level as I once had--perhaps this is part of my frustration. Hey, I don't deny I'm unhappy right now.

Just to give you some background, and show you how you really cannot judge a book by its cover, I have been an avid volunteer my entire life! I am not only a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer, but also have been an active leader in the Peace Corps community at a national level. I have served on several (and still serve on two) volunteer boards. I have worked in volunteer management professionally and taught volunteerism abroad on a State Department grant. I am the recipient of the Presidential Award for Volunteer Service over multiple years, and I was invited to march in an honorary position in the innaugural parade of a president I did not vote for due to my extensive volutneer service. If you need references/news articles, I am happy to send them. Unlike you, I am NOT a "private person" but rather an open book. I personally have nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of. Qute the contrary!

Despite all the struggles I am currently having with my health--I am waiting to have two surgeries (and am in rather severe pain due to one--which can make me quite negative and I am working on that), I am doing what I can. I am actually organizing a small event here in DC TONIGHT for one of the organizations I have volunteered for as a board member for many years. So I'm not just sitting around living this "Jerry Springerish" life that you envision!  But I do notice and am aware of the Jerry Springerish "stuff" going on around me--and I will find reason to complain about it, if that is alright with you.

Finally, one thing that is important for anyone to have regardless of your struggles or your level of "enligtenment" is to have a FREAKIN' SENSE OF HUMOR! One of the reasons I came to this site was because I loved Elsa's sense of humor and wit. She doesn't take life so seriously. It's a good approach to have regardless on your path or perspective.

+Peace+

LISA

Hi Vespa ~

Yes, thank you, I stand corrected. Didn't mean to directly imply that, just scratching around the surface.  I suppose this is a reflection of my own frustration regarding what I have noticed while browsing some of the online dating sites. Nothing wrong with wishing for money and security either though, as far as that goes.

Somebody talk me down, but expectations seem to be extremely high among alot of the profiles I have seen, as in either be making 6 figures or don't bother contacting me.. : ) 

This tends to bring up my own insecurity around not being worthy or a relationship if I can't be a strong provider, and perhaps there is some practical truth to that. Not that I'm broke and destitute or anything..

I frequently here these tall tales that foreign women making incredible partners, but have no idea if there is any truth to it.  I have even pondered that idea myself to be perfectly honest.  But nah, not for me...

Furthermore, it seems our culture seems to be churning out more and more Peter Pan types and more and more single women with no viable partners in sight...

Heard an interesting interview on how the chemicals that leach off of plastic products into our food and water are supposedly contributing to that problem as well... The chemical mimics estrogen, and therefore is having a crippling effect on men...

You remind me of a troll actually. Why are you here really? What is it you are seeking? Just to vent? Bitch? Entertain? Bounce off other people's opinions? What? Don't you have a private journal with private friends who will agree with you to go write this stuff in? 

note: "One of the most glaring things I've encountered my first days here--just from a handful of people is this rush to JUDGMENT." ....This IS IT'S OWN JUDGEMENT. And around and around we go.

Who is having fun with this btw? I mean venus IS in leo and many virgos have leo in their charts.

There is obvious (to me/us) denial and projection going on here. As you blatantly say stuff and then when people call you on it, you deny it. "Oh no i was having a bad day.. really i'm not such a bitch..". If one wasn't a bitch then they wouldn't be bitchy. At least have the decency to own your bitchy/less flattering side. At least you'd get somewhere. Instead around and around you/we go. Venus leo should be entertained. 

On another note.... I just read where Ron Wood from the Rolling Stones is leaving his wife for a 20-year old Russian bride,lol.

Dina,

The article wasn't a statement about ALL Russian women. It was a speculation into the Russian women who come over here and provide something to American men who are not getting "whatever it is that they need to be happy as partnered men" from American women. The article was just as much a commentary on how there is a lack of feminine ideals in American culture. If anything, it put American women in a bad light in comparison. As an American woman, though, I didn't take offense because I understand that the statements made in the article were not about me.

I can't really do the article justice. It was beautifully written and very positive. I tried to find it but now I can't due to the Google-crowding of all those silly Mail Order Russian Bride sites.

I admittedly don't know a thing about astrology which is why I find this site so fascinating, but there must be something in my chart that tends me towards wanting to be a peacemaker...

As far as judement is concerned, this is my experience. When someone judges me, or if I percieve I am being judged there are a couple of possibilities.

I can immediately take offense, and get defensive and lash out. (I fight back hard and ruthlessly, and usually I end up regretting it.)

I can take a hard look and see if there is something in the judgment that I can use to help my own personal growth.  This is when I thrive on honest criticism.  I really want to know what people honestly think, so I can find ways to improve myself.

Or, I can hear the judgment and listen without becoming judgmental or offended, especially if it has nothing to do with me.

Bottom line at least for me is, it's always a gift. And when it's painful, it means it struck a chord somewhere in my attachment to how other people see me, and more importantly, how I perceive myself.

What I began to realize is that I am extremely attached to what other people think about me. And realizing that alone lead me to know that it's apparently one of my biggest challenges.

But bottom line, if a judgment directed towards me hurts, or if I am offended, there is either some truth to it or I am not yet clear about what is true for me. That and I am highly invested in wanting approval. (very human all of these). Nothing else is possible as far as I can tell.

I also have discovered that it's none of my business what anyone thinks about me. I have no control over that.  People are going to think what they will and that's their business. I wouldn't want to thake that from them or even change their mind at this point. It's my business to love myself unconditionally in spite of anyone's opinion (judments) of me.

And of course, that alone is a life's work just to even get close, so it's an ongoing process.

In addition, typewritten words are crude form of communication and the possibility of misinterpretation is HUGE.  It's easy to take offense at something.

Bottom line, WE ALL LOVE one another, we just forget it from time to time, and we definitely live in vastly different universes. And we don't all need to agree on anything.

Diversity = beauty. 

If we were all sitting in a room together it would be a much different dynamic.

And I hope that doesn't add more fuel to the fire!

I am appreciating all points of view from all of you wonderful participants...

They all have merit in my whirld.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Breaking out the t-word already (troll)? Really? I recommend mental margaritas all around in this thread -- on me!

My apologies for painting American women in a negative light.. Maybe that's why I'm still single at 45!  Food for thought on my part...

Hugs,

Kirk

I feel like I've been watching an episode of the Dog Whisperer, where the new dog comes in making a lot of noise and the seasoned dogs of the pack rally around to tell him "here's how we behave in this pack."

I myself have never felt part of any "pack", including this one, and that may be due to my cluster of planets in the first house or something else, but I think it's interesting to watch this all play out.

One reason for the "go round" that Liz described in her "troll post" is that VespaChick keeps feeling the need to defend herself against everyone who has issued "you" statements against her. "You said this and that."

The last post by earthtokirk was very smartly written because instead of using "you" statements she spoke on behalf of herself.

It feels like this merry-go-round is making the last stop, with much needed margaritas being passed out by quassea :D, which is a nice ending to this (almost?) full moon semi-skirmish.

But, you know, I had to come in and toss in my two cents. Why, I do not know... maybe we're all attracted to negativity in some way or another. Look at it this way. VespaChick is getting WAYYY more attention than that smiley broad who came on here and said "Hi everybody!!!!" earlier this week.

And Elsa's getting lots of hits on this thread. So... it's all very interesting.

Apologies in advance for "beating a dead thread," but...

This was the first thing that popped into my head when I woke up.

I think it's pretty obvious that VespaChick's not a troll. She is someone who seems very ready for an astrology consult, who would probably benefit greatly from what Elsa can offer her.

Ultimately, we should all remember that everyone here is a potential client of Elsa's. 

We should all always be using language that makes other people feel welcome and supported.

Just sayin'.

Not about all Russian women, but it echoes certain recognizable stereotypes that Americans hold about them as well as these mail order brides, I almost spelled it male order.  I don't care if it put American women in a bad light.  I just think a lot of Americans fetishize Russian women.  That they are "mysterious."  I don't take offense.  I think it's weird.  Or even that these girls are more submissive or feminine.  I don't think they think this about just these girls. I think they think this about many girls.  

I feel sorry for the brides, not jealous.  I think it's weird for people to be jealous of a 20 year old Russian girl marrying some random American guy or Ron Wood.  I don't think she's winning a prize.  I don't know why she did it.  Then again, that's my stereotype, that they don't know the man and will be unhappy.  

@dina2: I think earthtokirk is a dude.  See #19.

Going to blather on a bit here.... 

I'm an American woman with my own very healthy income, no biological clock -- and I'm one of those LOATHSOME feminists.  But! here's the rub! I loooove to dote on a man *at my own discretion* because I love men! and not because I'm looking for a meal ticket or an escape clause. I am my own ticket, and it's wonderful. And it's good to expect reciprocation! How great would it be to be in a relationship where you're serving each other like two mated swans, in love till the end. 

Ideally we all pair up because we *want* to, not because we need to. But life doesn't work cleanly like that.

I don't, and couldn't, look down on those who don't have the choices or advantages I do. Being an Asian, Indian, or Eurasian women with limited means or options is a hardship. Patriarchy is a worldwide problem. I suffer from it, but not nearly to the depth or the degree that millions of others do. And simply because of the luck of the draw.

I think I'll go donate some money to an organization that supports women's rights, economic status and education in impoverished countries. Society worldwide only improves when women have choices. I encourage others to research this and do the same if they have the means and inclination. 

Peace out! Virgo out!  I've used way too many exclamation points today!!

P.S. I heartily recommend a consult with Elsa. She's awesome. Best money you'll spend. 

~quietly reading as I contemplate the pure-blood born-and-raised Russian fiancee on my arm~