This is an old one, but I was just reading this article and the author had an interesting question about affairs between married men and single women:

"Is it possible to support each other as women? What would it be like if there was a sisterhood among women where if you knew a man was married, you would leave him alone?"

Which of course prompted one commenter to respond:

"I agree. And men should stick together and support each other also. Single men shouldn't go after some other man's wife.
Sounds funny when you put the shoe on the other foot, doesn't it?"

(And, no, I don't think it sounds funny at all.  It sounds appropriate!)

I know Elsa's blogged about this topic before, but I agree with this whole-heartedly.  People should respect (Saturn) the boundaries (Saturn) of other people's relationships (Libra)!  If someone is in a monogamous relationship, that should be respected and outside parties shouldn't express interest in or persue either partner, no matter what their situation is (i.e. "But I'm so unhappy," "The relationship is over anyway, I just don't know how to end it," etc.).  If someone is in a non-monogamous relationship, the boundaries of that need to be respected as well: whatever rules the primary relationship has concerning the other relationships need to be adhered to.  It's really just that simple!

Of course, things will still happen.  For example, in college I was in a relationship with a guy I didn't know was already attached because his other girlfriend was two states away and he didn't have any keepsakes, photos, letters etc. out in view, nor did he talk about her (obviously).  However, once I found out, I refused to see him anymore because I don't want to be the kind of person who has affairs.  I like the thought of sanctity in relationships!  I think it's important, because otherwise it's just two people drifting along together without attachment until there's a bump in the road and that's it.  What's so special about that?  I can get the same thing from a friend without most of the difficulties -- but also none of the rewards.

So what do you guys think?  Agree or disagree?

I think all three of those answers are right.

If you're single, you shouldn't chase after people you know to be married.

If you're married, you should uphold your commitment.

And the people who are bound and determined to cheat, will cheat anyway.  

I agree, Shannon, and that's why I wrote the poll the way I did.  I think all those things are true, but I didn't want to give waffle room.  Yeah, the Libra stellium wants others to decide...  *snort*

But I do think that if single people weren't willing to dally with married people, there would be less cheating.  I know of so many people that intentionally go after people who are in a committed relationship it's not funny, and it's just so wrong.  Why do that to yourself and others?  *smh*  But if people took their commitments more seriously, there also wouldn't be as many affairs.  Two to tango and all that, yanno?   

So, idealistically, people would only commit to monogamy if they were confident about and comfortable with it, and people who were unattached would respect that commitment and not provide distraction.  Realistically, I don't think it will ever happen.  *huffs*  In the end, I think it comes down to unrealistic expectations.  If we put more emphasis on the realities of being in a long-term monogamous relationship instead of pushing this rosy-view "everything will be perfect always and you'll never be unhappy again" b.s., there would be less disenchantment with the whole franchise and, I suspect, more true happiness. 

This is coming up at the exact right moment for me. A few months ago, at 45 years old, I seriously faced for the first time in my life the question of whether to get involved with a married man.

Of course no one should. And I thought I knew that. I never thought I'd have cause to seriously examine that belief. Until this particular situation arose, and I found my heart and head at war. Bottom line: I didn't do it. I sent him packing. But I didn't send him away out of a sense of sisterhood. And I don't really think any woman who is drawn to a man would do it for that reason. 

Because I'm a total Sag, beyond interrogating myself when this issue arose, I did a bunch of research. Why do men have affairs?

It appears to me that there are two basic kinds of cheaters--guys something like Tiger, who just have an insatiable need for a variety of women, and they cheat, have sex x number of times, with x number of women, with minimal emotional involvement. And then, the other kind, the long(er)-married guys who don't routinely cheat, but become emotionally/sexually involved with someone else. My situation fell into the latter category.

And the literature I looked at suggested there is, at bottom, a power imbalance in the marital relationship. A man (or woman) who cannot open their mouth about that to their spouse turn to someone else and open their zipper/heart/mind/mouth.

I never for a moment didn't care about the wife, it was that her concerns were of less importance to me than my own, and his. But once I started looking at what might be driving him, I developed the sense, fairly quickly, that I would be stepping into a minefield. The odds were that somebody would get their leg blown off. 

And I care about the guy, and Cinderella fantasies come into play, and it turned into an emotional mess. But in the end, I decided that my getting involved in the situation wasn't going to help anyone. (I do think it's a crappy situation. I buy most of his version of things.) But, he can get himself out, or he can stay stuck.

In fact, I began to think of it in terms of those baby birds who peck themselves out of the shell. Sometimes somebody will come along, and wanting to help, start peeling away the shell for them. But it turns out that what makes the baby bird strong enough to live is the act of pecking away at the shell. If someone 'helps' them, the shell might be gone quicker, but they might be too weak to survive.

So, he's got issues he needs to sort out that have nothing to do with me. I can't really fault him for reaching out, for thinking there might be an easier solution than dealing with the reality he faces. I've acted similarly at times in my life. And I'm fully aware that he might look for another shell-pecking helper. But I wasn't up for it. I can wait. I want him whole or not at all. If he gets himself free, gets himself together, fantastic. If not, my life goes on.

But the point is, saying "you shouldn't cheat" was about as useful to me, in that moment, as saying "you shouldn't eat that cookie" is to a Biggest Loser contestant. People need to understand WHY, and what the cookie does to their body and mind, and most of all, find strategies for dealing with urge to eat the cookie. They need to understand what they give up when they eat the cookie. A little more realism, a little more explanation about what is really going on, would go a lot farther, imo, than biblical injunctions or exhortations to sisterhood.

Argh!  I just wrote a huge comment and it disappeared!    I don't have the gumption to try again right now, sorry.  I'll respond later.

Great thread!

Very thoughtful post Kasemenova! I agree with you in your decision. And if the love is real and he gets free then in the long run he should appreciate where you were coming from when declining him. Hard though. 

Thanks, Liz. It was harder than you know. He was my first love, 20-plus years ago. He is Pisces. His wife is Cappy, with Venus in Scorpio. He is struggling to, as a friend of mine puts it, find his ass with both hands. She uses the big guns. It was excruciating for me, having once loved him, to turn him away when he said he needed me. (And I have Venus in Scorpio, too. I have some big guns too.) Thank god I had all that therapy years ago. :) And that I looked at the charts! Pluto is transiting their sevenths. Both of them. That helps with letting go, letting the universe do its thing.

And SaDiablo, please do re-post, when you're up to it. :)

I' a married man new here on these boards and was tempted to cheat with a long time work associate at one time.  I have to say she became the greatest woman to me because she refused because I was married despite our great friendship and joy in each other's company.  Our friendship was only strengthened by doing the right thing, not cheating.  I came to see what a disaster it would have been, and that really I have no interest in it.  My respect for that woman now is incredible.  My relationship with my wife was not compromised, and I am so grateful for this.  I'm very grateful to the women who will say no.  Men are easily tempted, women you know this and can help us.  I really believe anyone married should be off limits and we have to support each other both men and women in this goal.  If you want to cheat, have the balls (or the guts) to ask your partner to open the relationship or have the honesty to end your commitment first.  If you see a married person or otherwise committed person, I believe it's best to stay away, help them keep that commitment. 

There's another angle on this, and probably an unpopular one but I'll throw it out there.  In response to:

idealistically, people would only commit to monogamy if they were confident about and comfortable with it

I wonder, sometimes, if the problem isn't that people can't keep it in their pants but that the norm is to expect them to?  I mean, the accepted standard/norm in our society is the two person monogamous committed relationship, as far as I can see.  And I wonder how this became the norm, given that the divorce rate is so high and monogamy doesn't seem to work for a lot of people.

Does that mean monogamy is a bad option?  Hell no - for a lot of people, it's a great option.  Does it mean it's the only one?  Nope.  But I don't think that most people would consider anything else for their love life.  *shrug*

Oh, and hi Joules - welcome!

It's nice to know, Joules, that you are grateful to that woman. Makes me feel better.  

And I don't mean to hijack this, but I just have to say that the last part of your comment bugs me a little bit. "Help them not to cheat." Why is that my job? I think this is part of the problem. I don't think it's the job of a single person to "help" the married couple--to help him get out, to help her stay in. 

That's the fundamental problem: That a third person is involved in the dynamics between a pair. If anyone says the word 'help' or 'need' to me, I get goofy. There are alcoholics in my family, there was abuse in my family. So, I have fuzzy boundaries at best, and I need to work to maintain them sometimes. His request for help was what caused all the trouble in the first place.

If the person who is tempted to get involved with a married person realizes that the temptation itself suggests a boundary issue on their part, then they can turn their attention back to themselves and also, btw, force the married party to turn their attention back where it belongs. That's why "sisterhood" or "thou shalt not" doesn't work on so many people, and didn't on me, because it doesn't answer the question of what need was driving me to consider it in the first place.

But, and I guess this might sound odd, I want to make the point that I wasn't 'helping' anybody, besides myself. I was doing what was best for ME, I was in fact being selfish and possessive. Because I do really care about him, and I have hope that the marriage will end. I don't want to share him, and I want there to be the possibility of a real relationship in the future. And if those are my hopes, then I was best off not getting entangled in the marriage. I ran the risk of 'losing' if it came down to open warfare, or having a blood-soaked trophy on my hands in the event I "won."

I don't know if I'm overreacting, but I get the sense from the tone of this thread that the husband is understood to have an issue, and the wife may have an issue (though mostly she is wholly innocent), and somehow the single person is supposed to rise above it all. Why the higher standard? First, that's not fair. But second, the third party has needs too, which at least one of the pair is exploiting. And sometimes both. There are plenty of wives who think they won't tolerate it, and then do, angry but unwilling to let go, or even relieved to have one less thing on their to-do list.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense. I think the single person should act in their OWN best interest, which ends up, probably, in the best interest of all parties. I think it's great that you're grateful to your coworker, but she probably wasn't doing it for you. She was doing it for herself, for her own best interest, whether she hoped you'd be free some day or didn't want the drama or didnt want to risk her job. Whatever. The problem is that so many people get so confused about what their own best interest is.

I think we either have an inner compass of what is right and what is wrong, or we don't.

 Screwing around with someone else's husband/wife is wrong.  And the person who is married, they are equally wrong.  It is not complicated to me.  I feel this, he feels that, blah, blah, blah, it all comes down to the same thing - you are choosing your own needs over what is morally right, and someone else is going to get hurt, probably very, very badly.

The world is filled with people who are only concerned with themselves, and their own needs, and to hell with everything/everyone else.  

I don't think it is up to single people to resist married people, or vice a versa, like I stated above, you either know what is right or you don't, and people definitely will go ahead anyway and do what "feels good" to them, because I guess they feel entitled, no matter what the consequences.

All very good comments, and a subject that also interests me a lot.  I've been tempted, but have resisted for the exact reasons Kasamenova mentioned.   It's easy to say people who cheat are bad, their inner compass is faulty, they feel entitled, or whatever.  It's not that simple.  I would have said that myself until it happened to me, because I just couldn't imagine it every happening!  Easy to judge until it happens to you....

Pink minxx and shannon: i appreciate ur comments.

Shannon,
I agree that monogamy is not the only option and is definitely not the best option for some, but monogamy is the standard, not just for humans but for other primates, too.  Interestingly (and chillingly), the first recorded instance of a non-human primate using a weapon was a gorilla who had caught his mate being unfaithful: he picked up a branch and beat her with it.  (He later fought with the profligrate male, too, just not with a weapon.)  There was a great book I read a few years ago that examined the biological basis of monogamy in multiple species.  What the authors found is that a lot of our evolutionary reproductive traits are markers of an inherently nonmonogamous species!

I think a lot of people are monogamous for the same reason they're religious: it's what is culturally taught and acceptable and they don't examine the rules or themselves enough to find out if it's actually what fits them best.  Conformity, in other words.  What made monogamy the cultural standard, though, I can't even begin to guess.  I have my suspicions, but that would be such a tangent!  (Let us not go there, it is a silly place.  )

Personally, I've only been in two monogamous relationships.  One was because it was my first serious relationship and I hadn't considered other relationship models at that time, the second was because I honestly wanted to be monogamous.  My SOP is to have multiple partners, all of whom know about the others.  This works out best for me, since I don't have a problem with monogamy if it's what I choose, but if it's chosen for me I chafe.  That being said, I've still never cheated when I've pledged monogamy, no matter how unhappy I was, nor have I felt the urge to cheat.  I suppose it's just not part of my nature.

And that's really the crux of it - you can be ethical about your lifestyle, whether or not you choose monogamy.  I am pretty clear we both agree on that one!  And I am probably more open than strictly necessary about my nonstandard lifestyle choices.  *chuckle*

to kasemenova's point:

"Help them not to cheat." Why is that my job? I think this is part of the problem. I don't think it's the job of a single person to "help" the married couple--to help him get out, to help her stay in. 

I agree.  I think one of the things we are lacking, at least in the society I observe on a regular basis, is the willingness to make our own decisions and take responsibility for them. And for me, that's precisely what the entire debate boils down to.

I don't understand why anyone would want to get involved in such a mess. Unless you like to screw with other people's lives or like them "unattainable."

For me it's black and white.

Be a decent person and don't hurt other people knowingly.  Period.

This is so the t-square showing up. I think that the idea that others help you stay monogamous is valid in the idea that we live in a community and under a social contract (saturn) in order to provide a sense of stability and safety for our kids so that they can then carry our society forward.. rather than have in threatened by generations of no-structure. It is inherent in us to want the structure. I think that if more people who did not want monogamy acted with integrity then our society would shift it's model more in that direction - which has been happening anyway.. or at least it's been shifting into serial monogamy.

But it is tough if you feel that in your decision that makes you go without, you are allowing another to not have to define and then stick to their boundaries. Sometimes having too much saturn emphasis individually can make one envious of those with less control or sense of morals who end up being supported anyway. Will I have kids or will my desire to be around family and contribute to my nieces and nephews make me the spinster aunt I dread becoming?? At every moment I choose and if in the end we are win-win I don't worry about it. Because in the end we are animals just trying to keep our heads above water and our children safe.

kasemenova

 for so many reasons I really value what you had to say. Thank you.

Dorothy, Jenfullmoon, and Shell: I hear you. That was actually kind of my point. I don't think there's much wrong with my moral compass. I got to be 45 years old without killing anyone, robbing a liquor store, or cheating in a relationship. I've never even been tempted to cheat. If I'm that unhappy in a relationship, I end it. I'm a responsible serial monogamist. I'm not a mess, and I don't take this stuff lightly.

The original question, though, was about sisterhood. And I was saying that sisterhood is...irrelevant. The sisterhood argument seems also, in effect, to make me party to the relationship, like I have a duty to her. And I don't think that's true.

My own marriage/divorce figured into my thinking. I was married young, and the marriage got very weird, then died. I had NO idea what went wrong. He is Catholic and his family was VERY upset about the divorce and OMG I suffered, feeling like I was letting everyone down.

Anyway, two points 1) There was a guy I worked with at the time who was interested in me, and though we didn't do anything until after I separated (and we were together for two years after), his attention and friendship helped me gather my courage and weather some of the blows that were coming down. And 2) I found out a year ago that my ex-husband is gay. Utterly. Speechless. NEVER occured to me. He apparently came out about 5 years ago, after having married/divorced another woman after me.

So, in short, I know there can be very freaky things going on in marriage, things that even the people involved don't realize. Cut to March, last year: I go on FB to play Mafia Wars and suddenly there's an IM from a guy I knew in hs, my first love. The conversation started innocently, and eventually led to "I am really unhappy and I don't know what to do." And there is a difficult issue involved, which I don't feel comfortable talking about. But I was sympathetic, I know how hard it can be to figure out WTF is going on, what to do.

And, Liz, to your point: Where is my duty here? Should I be prizing his marriage over everything else? (There are no kids.) Now, obviously, my knowledge is limited, but the things he said rang bells in my head, about my own marriage. I don't think his wife is gay, but I think she's in deep denial about something, and I think she wants him right there in Egypt with her, and there isn't much she won't do to keep him there. And I've been there, with someone busily knitting and pulling the wool over my eyes. So, I understood why he might need support. Remember, I knew his family, his mother. I know something about what he carries. So that was why 'sisterhood' is irrelevant, because in that sense, I didn't feel kinship with his wife.

Anyway, I didn't go looking for the situation. In fact, I was stunned by it. And I had to find my way through it. I did eventually remove myself, but not without struggle. If that means I have a faulty moral compass, well then, okay. But I do not accept the notion that I was acting selfishly, entitled, concerned only with my own needs. In fact, thinking that way was what helped me walk away. I wanted to do what  "felt good." I believed I was entitled to peace, that my own needs were more important to me than his. And Omie: Thanks.