People have been bringing up their experiences with therapy here and there and I thought, I'd start this thread.

I went to therapy weekly for 3 years solid, almost 20 years ago. I consider it the best investment I ever made. I could definitely not do what I do now without having up that time in the trenches.

That said, I think therapy is frequently ineffective. I prefer astrology for a number if reasons, mostly that it is so efficient. However I would not be caught dead seeing an astrologer who had no emotional sophistication, gained either through therapy or age and experience. Basically, it's your psyche and you have to pay mind who you let in there.

What do you think about this>

I agree.  I got lots of therapy, several therapists, a shrink, then I got some that worked.  hallelujah, a whole new world.  so therapy was mostly not effective for me, until it rocked my world.  but astrology has been mostly effective all the time.

I also think a person can get the same benefit in other ways.  my former mentor thought psychology was hogwash and most practitioners were dingbats... I disagreed, but she had been to hell and back and was completely "together."  so, yeah.

I think any way someone can pull back the curtain and see reality is BOY HOWDY. I find astrology to be a more brass tacks approach than psychology.  though both have their place. 

I would find it unlikely that someone who had never seen behind the curtain themselves would be able to show me what's back there. 

I have yet to have a great experience with any counselor...  the whole one hour thing is weird to me.  I feel like it takes 2-3 hours to get momentum going in the conversation and to make progress.  But maybe it just takes time for me to warm up!

In the 3 years I went to therapy, I saw three different practitioners. The first was the worst, the second was pretty damned good in spite of being a Barbie look-a-like who wore pink suits. I stopped seeing her when I left town.

 My last therapist was excellent, I have to say I got very lucky with her because I showed up in her office with problems and a half and she definitely guided me through them and when I look back in hindsight, I think she did so flawlessly.

I did have a couple of misfires between the 2nd and the 3rd practitioner. You really have to be willing to cut your losses when you see someone does not have the chops.

After I came over your blog , I feel much more educated about both phsycology and astrology...and feel I have a greater understanding about my own mind and others. I think there is a great balance on this blog. I have struggled with some stuff since I was 15, been to many therapists, but I never felt it did any good...there is too little response and too much "lets try these pills"....astrology has just been so much more honest ,real and touchable...(the little I know)..
but I guess it is important to find the right therapist...and not to lie to them for the sake of progress and impressions:)

I am so ()%#$ blunt. I quit one therapist after about 3 visits.

"Why don't you want to come anymore?"

"Because I don't think you are smart enough to do this," I said. "I just don't think you have the brains."

::smiles::

See, I used to be much worse than I am now and by far.  I wasn't mad at the woman, I just didn't have the sense to lie,

Thank you for bringing this up.  My boyfriend recently began therapy and I had the opportunity to reflect on my experiences.  I am extremely grateful for the eye-opening experience of going at all (as opposed to not looking for any help), but at times I have found therapy unproductive or even harmful.  But, you gotta break some eggs to make an omelet, I guess.  These days, my mood and experience steer me more towards astrology, and I find myself reacting that way.  For instance, my boyfriend reported on a session, "we spent some time talking about why my first reaction to emotional conflict is to shut down or run away" and I thought to myself "Um, because you're a Cancer with Moon-Neptune and you either dig a hole or vanish."  And I wonder how much time they will spend trying to understand that, when his properly-analyzed chart might give them a road map.  For myself, I have a couple of outstanding issues that I haven't decided yet whether they'll be better addressed with therapy or astrology.  The strong point in favor of astrology that I can cite is, self-use.  Everyone, including psychiatrists, agree that the lightbulb has to want to change.  That means that the therap-ee has to do the hard work.  With astrology, I can read about it, study about it, chat about it with you guys, incrementally, every day of my life, incorporating one piece at a time.  Therapy, for me, tended to get compartmentalized into the hour session I'd spend with my counselor every few weeks or so.

To acknowledge what you're saying, Elsa, I also believe it SO depends on the therapist.  Probably as it also depends on the astrologer.

Hmm, I've been thinking that astrology might be better for insight, therapy might be better for problem solving, but I'm not sure.

 In either case I think that the saying on my old dentist's wall holds true: "There is nothing that the dentist can do which will overcome what the patient will not do."

I don't see that it makes any sense to go to therapy or consult an astrologer when you aren't already trying as hard as you can. (And this applies to me: I'm not doing as much as I can. I really need a coach standing over my shoulder going: "try harder, damn you! harder!"  )

I like that astrology can address issues in terms of symbols.  

I seem to think it is easier to raise issues with astrologers than with therapists sometimes.  With the therapists I have worked with, it has been too easy to stay superficial, and keep going around the bush about the same issues for too long.  I'm about to book a consult with Elsa, and, based on what I've seen here my first week or so on the boards, I expect scathing, but in a positive way.

silverheels, I don't know that I am ever scathing. I do try not to waste people's time though, especially if they are hurting.

"Er... go home and hurt some more tomorrow, then come back and see me."

I am much inclined to lay it out - "Do this, this, this and this, and you'll solve this thing..."

That I do that in 30 min IS alarming but I don't think I should stop because 30 min is all some people have and others just like it that way. The hold their paw up, I can see the shard of glass sticking out, so I pull it out and they say, "Whew!  That wasn't so bad after all."

Compare that to being surrounded by people who say there is no glass in your foot. Now that is scathing.

I have been through hell in my life and because of it, I can do this. I'd take advantage.

I'm a substance abuse counselor. First thing I do with a new client chart is check the birthdate. It helps a bunch in cutting to the chase. If somebody is particularly hard to work with I will check more than the sun sign, but usually even just that's enough to get the momentum going. Libra's are gonna want a lot of validation and approval, Virgos like worksheets, Gemini's will sound like they're processing everything, but no real healing takes place until I can make 'em cry and then hope they come back. I also notice I work particularly well and more quickly with other Pisces, Scorpios, and air signs, where I have all my "feelings" planets.

Carl Jung seemed to think both astrology and therapy worked. Both do if the client and the counselor/astrologer are both invested in a good outcome. I know some counselors that have the insight of the daily newspaper horoscope, and some clients wouldn't know good advice if it bit them on the ass.

Elsa said, "I have been through hell in my life and because of it, I can do this." Ditto with counseling or therapy. Deal with your own pain first, don't project it on other people, and you're probably gonna do a pretty good job.  

Recently, I had a 24 year old with no kids lecture me about parenting. I just stood there (as the soldier would say), like a hog looking at a wrist watch.

Oh, my goodness. Was I lecturing? Apologies if you thought I was, because you've given me great advice. I am not keeping my mouth in line too much these days.

 Or maybe I'm just being really codependent right now. 

ingrid - no!  I very much appreciated your comment!

My comment was unrelated to yours - just an example of someone pontificating about something they no nothing about.  Sort of like Tom Cruise lecturing us about pregnancy and childbirth.  Whaaat?

I think one thing to point out is that there are many different kinds of therapists and types of therapy. I've done about four years worth of therapy, in a couple of big chunks, but the issues were somewhat different each time because I was in a different place. For the first bit, I was in supportive therapy and that was critical, because I was coming out of a suicide attempt. I don't mean to shock anybody--and it may be a little TMI--but I want to make the point that sometimes somebody needs really serious, skilled, one-on-one attention. It wasn't a gesture. I almost died. And without that kind of therapy, I'm not sure I'd still be here. 

I came to this blog originally as research for my writing, and I'm finding myself playing with ideas I find here, applying them to my life to see what I come up with. I think there is considerable common terminology between the two, and I am finding myself making use of these insights in various ways. But I'm not sure I'd be able to do that without the foundation that was laid down by the work I did in therapy. I'm not sure I'd quite have the 'categories' to work with, if you see what I mean.

But I also agree that what one brings to it is key. If one is wrestling with an issue, and has some psychological sophistication, I think it can be very useful. I do think, however, that certain issues, certain crises, may require the intensive experience of therapy.  

A great therapist is priceless... I often get a lot of help from having the "mirror" - myself shown back to me.  So I can see my patterns that are destructive and hopefully... change what I want to change (one example of useful therapy). I've also learned a tremendous amount from astrologers I've worked with.... 

I've had good and so-so experiences in therapy.... I like guidance, mentors, helpers -- wherever I find them. Could be an astrologer, a therapist, a spiritual leader, and so on.... Some people have a lot of wisdom.

kasemenova, I agree with you. An astrologer can tell you there is something in there.  You go to therapy to excavate it. 

You can do this with an astrologer too, over time but it's unusual. I have some long term clients I work with frequently and a therapy-like interaction has developed but it is definitely not the norm.

I like Jessica's comment... and I understand the "dig a hole or vanish" lol (cancer sun/mercury/mars)

It takes a lot of effort not to vanish/contract...

Who did I let in?  A 35 year old ex-heroin addict who had 3 kids before the age of 21 from 3 different men.  She got her formal education at college(started during her first Saturn return), but her skills compassion and ability to give you the tools you need to fix yourself  where kick ass, and came from the school of hard knocks. 

Can you tell I really liked her!  It was probably at the lowest point of my life and while my friends where all "coddling" me,  what I really needed was someone to give me a pick-axe and a shovel and a foot up my ass screaming "keep digging"   I suppose when you are laying under a kabillion tons of rubble you don't need someone saying, "It's gonna be ok" in a soft smushy voice,  you need someone with a jack hammer. 

Therapy and astrology,  they only work if you use the tools they give you, but they won't do the work for you. 

I agree with most of what's been said.  Having used both, I think both can be effective tools at handling things.  I most like the analogy that astrology shows you where to dig, and therapy hands you the shovel.  I got lucky and landed first go in the office of a therapist who was pretty straight forward and worked in the right kind of therapy to help me through what I was dealing with.  When we couldn't do any more together, she actually kicked me out and referred me to someone else who worked a little differently.  It was pretty awesome, even though at the time I was kind of

"An astrologer can tell you there is something in there.  You go to therapy to excavate it."

This sums up how I feel about it.  I don't think one is necessarily better than the other, but they dovetail nicely at times.

Like Jessica's Cancer with Moon-Neptune, there's stuff in my chart that my therapist has unknowingly pointed to as "we need to work here."  And I can say, yeah, my chart explains that and leave it there, or I can try to express it differently using the tools that both astrology and my therapist have given me.

It really does depend on the counselor, I think.

I've had a few experiences with therapy.

The first was after my son was stillborn.  I was 17 years old and was part of this weekly "Teen mom" therapy group through school and the therapist we met with, she had had a stillborn baby as well.  I began seeing her privately and she was a lot of help.  She gave me lots of books to read....  I am extremely thankful for the understanding she showed.  I also did the group therapy thing, both going to groups and online, and have a handful of friends who I met that way.  In that experience I think the most helpful aspect was being with people who REALLY understood when I was going through.

 I've dealt with depression all of my life and a few years back it got bad so I decided to go see a therapist.  I met with a MFT a few times and did not like her at all!  In fact, the last time I left her office I was on the brink of having a panic attack.  All she did was have me analyze myself without offering any feedback.  I analyze myself very  well on my own, thank you very much!  ;)  Actually she did have feedback... she let me know how much anti depressant and anti anxiety pills had helped her.... that is NOT the path I wanted to take so I stopped going.

I then found a Psychologist who's a Psychology Professor at UCLA AND a Yoga Instructor.  In fact, he runs (or used to run) a yoga group on dealing with Anxiety and OCD with Yoga and meditation using a protocol developed by the UCSD Psychology dept.    I LEARNED a lot from that group.  Aside from the weekly yoga groups I also began seeing him once a week and I did find it helpful, particularly with my anxiety and ocd.  I am a strong believer in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy because of it!

This might sound weird but I also feel like my partners have also been my therapists in a way (and vice versa).  I've done a lllllloooooottt of work/contemplation/discussion about my deepest darkest motivations/wounds/shadow with my partners.

Astrology is a very helpful tool, imo, because it leads to understanding and bringing out inner motivations...

I would like to go back to therapy to deal with some childhood stuff and how awesome would it be to find a therapist who also incorporates astrology into their practice!

  It was very helpfull going for psychotherapy for a year in high school, but it didnt help me as much as astrology is helping me now!

Therapy helped me by communicate and address the problems but astrology showed me the deeper side,the way and how to solve them

<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Times; font-size: medium">Therapy and astrology,  they only work if you use the tools they give you, but they won't do the work for you. 

<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Times; font-size: medium">An astrologer can tell you there is something in there.  You go to therapy to excavate it.

Both really great observations!  So does astrology ever provide the tools to actually do the work, too?  For instance, I know my Mercury-Pluto in 4th is connected to having problems trusting people.  That doesn't give me the slightest clue if there's anything I can do to heal my feelings around it in certain cases.  Y'all are selling me on going back to therapy.... I only hate the feeling of paying $100 and feeling like the therapist only told me things I already knew.  Maybe I should try not to be such a know-it-all.

I have also been in domestic violence counseling, both individual and group, and I dropped the former because I got tired of talking about *him* all the time, and the latter was sort of fulfilling because the participants tended to be people who had not left their abusers (seems that most don't) and I was the real-life example who could tell them that yes, you can do it and things can be okay.  That felt very good, but I also didn't feel like I was moving forward myself, individually.

Monica, thank you so much for sharing your experiences. (((hugs)))  I also once had a very bad experience with an MFT, and I think I will also look into CBT since you like it so much.

moonpluto, thank you - question though, do you ever *try* to work not to vanish?  is it important to you? or do you figure that's a perfectly acceptable way to react and go with it?  philosophical question...

kasemenova, I'm glad you got that kind of support. thank you for sharing.  For every person that I hear say that got therapy and support to help overcome a really painful experience, I am amazed and saddened for the people who struggle through without it.

Jessica, i think the vanish thing is an escape route/a defense mechanism. It may be a normal response for someone with Cancer in their chart but for me also it was a response to childhood trauma. To disappear. Learning to STAY present was/is often a focus for me in therapy but it's hard work--

I'll throw in a vote for CBT, as well.  Helped me a lot to find what triggers my reactions, and then rethink those reactions when I felt they were inappropriate.

@ingrid--LOL!  The Gemini approach sounds about right!

Gem:  "Nope, it's not there."

You:  "Yes it is"

Gem:  "No it's not."

You:  "What, you mean this?"  *Holds up the head of Medusa*

Gem:  *Turn to stone*

Well, I'm a therapist by trade, so I can't say it doesn't work. ;)  I also have no problem saying what I feel like is unpopular to say in the field: therapy isn't for everyone.  Hell, individual therapy doesn't work for me!  Instead of looking at my problems, I just soak in the validation (Leo asc., Sun in the 5th).  I've been in groups for the past four years, and have gotten so much more out of it because with so many people working on themselves, I can't just sit around and get attention.

I think another unpopular thing in the field to say is that therapy is a very bizarre situation.  You're expected to go sit in a little room with a complete stranger and pour your heart out.  That just doesn't fly with a lot of people, especially people who probably need the mental/emotional healing the most.  For therapy to truly work, a relationship has to be built, and it's a very intimate relationship.  That's why it is important to cut out if a therapist isn't working for you.  Take the same stance to it one should take to dating - try 'em out until you find "the one."  Also, just like romantic relationships, you won't necessarily find the lifetime "one," just one that works for a period of time.

I can't say much about therapy vs. astrology, because I haven't had much direct experience with astrologers.  I totally agree with "An astrologer can tell you there is something in there.  You go to therapy to excavate it."  Ingrid, I really like your approach to each client using astrology...I might try that and see what happens. :)

So I'm in individual therapy right now (even though I said it doesn't work!), and my current therapist is well versed in astrology.  It makes it so much easier because when I try to describe myself, and having trouble, I can just point at what I'm trying to describe on my chart, and she gets it.

wow, so much discussion that I can resonate with here. It's kind of a funny thing for me that I am so interested in the astrological aspects of myself after having graduated and taken masteral units in Psychology (which I still want to pursue by the way). But I felt the need to know more of both areas and find a way to merge them. Call it wanting the best of both worlds so I can better equip myself of ammunition should the battle to explore my psyche arises. lol. But kidding aside, I want to be more self-aware (through astrology) so I can better use what I went to school for and use both to better guide myself and others in this jungle of a world. Or so methinks. :)

Elle

I love relating psychology and astrology.  I really interested in psychology (will study this in university soon!) and I just started reading Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas's book "The Development of Personality: Seminars in Psychological Astrology".  I love their connections to personal perception and parenting issues.  If you perceive your parents to be a certain way, you expect it to confirm your perception by personal experiences and I relate to this. I have neptune square my moon and for as long as I can remember I always perceived my mother with a certain confusion and fogginess.  The moment it was confirmed that she was schizophrenic (I was 6 years old), it totally made sense (finally!) in my mind... I ALWAYS taught there was something but was waiting for confirmation! My perception of her was not her reality, especially in the beginning of my life... I love this thread Elsa!!! 

The first thing I did after buying my first car as a teenager was go to  therapist. (Sun/Venus/Mars trine Pluto). It was a god-sent match and saved my life.

getting a degree in jungian psychology did me far mroe good than any therapist i ever went to.

i think i didn't try hard enough to find the right one.

and last time i had a major depressive episode i found someone and made an appointment, then kicked myself out of it before the actual appointment.  it would have been nice to not lose those two weeks of my life getting my head back together.

Someone might say you sublimated, wyrdling :D

I very much agree with the idea that astrology lends you the map and therapy, I think, is a place where you can check in on your journey, where there is someone there to listen to you. A sort of base or harbor.  The way I read your comments is that there are different, smart ways that a therapist can approach a problem and guide you through them. 

I think that astrology is more effective, but I also think that psychic people are even more effective :D If a therapist knew astrology and could read my mind, I'd be set.